Both of you mean well, but you're way off base. I really don't believe you understand what drives Americans, especially uneducated and rural Americans, and definitely not those in the south. You don't understand it until you actually live it and are exposed to it. You need to see it, hear it, smell it, and just live it to get it. These are not people you win over with policies or ideas. You win them by playing to their base instincts and leveraging the biases that have developed over the decades. This is why the Republicans are better at this game than the Democrats, because they understand how to leverage these biases and motivate these people to vote against their very self-interests and in favor of the corporations that are making their lives worse.
When Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 he said then that the Democrats had lost the south for a generation or more. He was right, because this policy was against the very biases that existed in the south he knew the Republicans would use that to stoke fears and blame all evils on the granting rights to the disenfranchised. This law did not curb those biases, nor the behaviors associated with them. It did not magically change anything, except give people who hate each other more reason to hate each other, and then other people they don't even know. Racism is still rampant in the south (and not much better in the north) and nothing is changing that. Black people still fear the power of white people and white privilege. They still have that hanging over their heads and must tread carefully as a result. Voting for black people is not easy as it is a privilege they don't have the same access to that white people do. This systemic racism and the mechanisms that forward this racist agenda is what keeps change in check.
Conversely, for poor white people the very same racist agenda is what keeps them in check and keeps them voting for the party that is actually doing the most damage to them and their ability to leverage any form of social mobility. The racist fires are kept stoked by the Republicans (ironically the party of Lincoln) and they make sure that all of those poor working class people remember that it is black and brown people who took their jobs, which were later off-shored by evil Democrats, even though it was their corporate benefactors behind the mess in the first place. The biases that people hold are reinforced each election and nothing is changing in that regard. For white people, it is the black and brown people are coming to take your livelihood away from you and only one party can protect you from that. The Democrats don't have an answer to that, because they have to try and represent everyone and they don't get to rely on those base biases. It's a weakness in their approach and strategy.
What makes things worse, and this was alluded to by another poster, the Democrats don't have a real good state level game. The Republicans dominate state politics and as a result they get to pull the levers of power that enforce the systems that systemic disenfrachisement and racism. Gerrymandering makes it possible for these biases to be maintained and re-enforced. The majority rule does not exist, so making change is impossible when the states are set up so small enclaves of rich voters outweigh the power of larger voting blocks. The system is set up to be repressive and all the policies and policy wonks in the world will not change this. Systemic change is required, but the mechanisms to change that are unavailable because of the way the system is stacked against those who need the system changed in their favor. It is the ultimate catch 22.
I am very hopeful that we are seeing the beginning of the end to this as a result of the past two elections. Those powerless groups have started to get to the polls and have started to vote in blocks. They have turned Georgia and Arizona purple. That is BIG. But it is only a result of activism by the black (Georgia) and brown (Arizona) vote getting out and casting ballots. Sadly, the state level politics has not been impacted to the same level, because these people don't know how the system works and what they have to change to make that system start working for them. This is a baby step, but a good step. Now these people need to be educated on how the system is stacked against them and how to get past the biases they have to expand their voting block and dominate the states as well. You have to own the local politics if you hope to change the state, and you have to own the state if you hope to change the federal politics, because the levers of power to restack the deck are managed at that state level. Change starts with education and action as a result of that education. Without understanding the system you're trying to change you stand no hope in making it work for you.
Not questioning anything in here, as you obviously live in the system and would be in a position to know what you're talking about.
Both of you mean well, but you're way off base. I really don't believe you understand what drives Americans, especially uneducated and rural Americans, and definitely not those in the south. You don't understand it until you actually live it and are exposed to it. You need to see it, hear it, smell it, and just live it to get it. These are not people you win over with policies or ideas. You win them by playing to their base instincts and leveraging the biases that have developed over the decades. This is why the Republicans are better at this game than the Democrats, because they understand how to leverage these biases and motivate these people to vote against their very self-interests and in favor of the corporations that are making their lives worse.
Regarding the uneducated and rural Americans, if there was better access to college or university education in rural areas, and good incentives for young people in rural areas to seek higher education, over time could rural areas be turned purple or would you just start churning out educated Republicans?
I'm curious about whether the urban/rural divide has much overlap with the educated/non-educated divide?
Obviously I don't know nothing about nothing, or if even such an initiative would be possible to implement federally. I'm sure Republican states wouldn't take too kindly to the idea.
New Era - thanks for your post. i'm wondering if you could clarify/expand on one point....
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era
...
Voting for black people is not easy as it is a privilege they don't have the same access to that white people do. This systemic racism and the mechanisms that forward this racist agenda is what keeps change in check.
...
are there less places to vote making it more difficult?
i can't imagine that they are denied access to a voting location due to skin colour becuz that would be all over the news.
i'm just curious as to some examples.
it's quite sad and totally not right if stuff is happening to restrict people from voting.
__________________ "...and there goes Finger up the middle on Luongo!" - Jim Hughson, Av's vs. 'Nucks
Regarding the uneducated and rural Americans, if there was better access to college or university education in rural areas, and good incentives for young people in rural areas to seek higher education, over time could rural areas be turned purple or would you just start churning out educated Republicans?
I'm curious about whether the urban/rural divide has much overlap with the educated/non-educated divide?
Obviously I don't know nothing about nothing, or if even such an initiative would be possible to implement federally. I'm sure Republican states wouldn't take too kindly to the idea.
There is a definitely coloration between education and liberal thinking. It's exactly why someone like Betsy Devos was put in charge of education in the US, to cripple the public education system as much as possible. That way you keep the poor rural folks uneducated and reliably republican, and the wealthier people put their kids into private schools, making the republican donor class even richer. It's a win-win for the morally bankrupt
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New Era - thanks for your post. i'm wondering if you could clarify/expand on one point....
are there less places to vote making it more difficult?
i can't imagine that they are denied access to a voting location due to skin colour becuz that would be all over the news.
i'm just curious as to some examples.
it's quite sad and totally not right if stuff is happening to restrict people from voting.
Did you not see the furor over the Texas governor reducing the number of polling stations before voting day? It just so happens that the most affected areas were minority populations, I'm sure that was just a coincidence though
Also take a look at voter ID regulations that the Republicans have been pushing hard for years now, which make it more difficult to vote in poorer areas which are again mostly minority populations. That's not even taking into account taking time off to actually vote, easy to do as a white collar worker, but vastly more difficult if you're juggling multiple minimum wage jobs that won't give you time off to go vote
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Both of you mean well, but you're way off base. I really don't believe you understand what drives Americans, especially uneducated and rural Americans, and definitely not those in the south. You don't understand it until you actually live it and are exposed to it. You need to see it, hear it, smell it, and just live it to get it. These are not people you win over with policies or ideas. You win them by playing to their base instincts and leveraging the biases that have developed over the decades. This is why the Republicans are better at this game than the Democrats, because they understand how to leverage these biases and motivate these people to vote against their very self-interests and in favor of the corporations that are making their lives worse.
When Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 he said then that the Democrats had lost the south for a generation or more. He was right, because this policy was against the very biases that existed in the south he knew the Republicans would use that to stoke fears and blame all evils on the granting rights to the disenfranchised. This law did not curb those biases, nor the behaviors associated with them. It did not magically change anything, except give people who hate each other more reason to hate each other, and then other people they don't even know. Racism is still rampant in the south (and not much better in the north) and nothing is changing that. Black people still fear the power of white people and white privilege. They still have that hanging over their heads and must tread carefully as a result. Voting for black people is not easy as it is a privilege they don't have the same access to that white people do. This systemic racism and the mechanisms that forward this racist agenda is what keeps change in check.
Conversely, for poor white people the very same racist agenda is what keeps them in check and keeps them voting for the party that is actually doing the most damage to them and their ability to leverage any form of social mobility. The racist fires are kept stoked by the Republicans (ironically the party of Lincoln) and they make sure that all of those poor working class people remember that it is black and brown people who took their jobs, which were later off-shored by evil Democrats, even though it was their corporate benefactors behind the mess in the first place. The biases that people hold are reinforced each election and nothing is changing in that regard. For white people, it is the black and brown people are coming to take your livelihood away from you and only one party can protect you from that. The Democrats don't have an answer to that, because they have to try and represent everyone and they don't get to rely on those base biases. It's a weakness in their approach and strategy.
What makes things worse, and this was alluded to by another poster, the Democrats don't have a real good state level game. The Republicans dominate state politics and as a result they get to pull the levers of power that enforce the systems that systemic disenfrachisement and racism. Gerrymandering makes it possible for these biases to be maintained and re-enforced. The majority rule does not exist, so making change is impossible when the states are set up so small enclaves of rich voters outweigh the power of larger voting blocks. The system is set up to be repressive and all the policies and policy wonks in the world will not change this. Systemic change is required, but the mechanisms to change that are unavailable because of the way the system is stacked against those who need the system changed in their favor. It is the ultimate catch 22.
I am very hopeful that we are seeing the beginning of the end to this as a result of the past two elections. Those powerless groups have started to get to the polls and have started to vote in blocks. They have turned Georgia and Arizona purple. That is BIG. But it is only a result of activism by the black (Georgia) and brown (Arizona) vote getting out and casting ballots. Sadly, the state level politics has not been impacted to the same level, because these people don't know how the system works and what they have to change to make that system start working for them. This is a baby step, but a good step. Now these people need to be educated on how the system is stacked against them and how to get past the biases they have to expand their voting block and dominate the states as well. You have to own the local politics if you hope to change the state, and you have to own the state if you hope to change the federal politics, because the levers of power to restack the deck are managed at that state level. Change starts with education and action as a result of that education. Without understanding the system you're trying to change you stand no hope in making it work for you.
I understand completely what motivates southern white voters, but the culture isnt monolithic, and in every other respect outside of just plain racism it is a voting bloc that could be pulled over to a democratic and fairly left wing democratic ideology as well, these are the white folks in the US with the most to gain by democratic policies, it is a question of local organization and national candidate, every time the Dem's run a more down to earth preferably southern candidate, from Johnson to Carter to Clinton, even on some level Obama, all candidates that the working class can feel comfortable with and recognise their accent, cadence and background as something relatable the party does better in the south, but every time the Party runs some Northeastern party apparatchik, the Dukakis. Kerry, Gore and Hillary they lose that sense of connection and get slaughtered.
The other point I think we overlook is that the Dems dont have to 'win the white vote', they have to just get all of the black vote out and some of the white vote, historically they haven't been much good at getting the black vote out to start with, with a good ground game all of those states are winnable with a decent candidate
Regarding the uneducated and rural Americans, if there was better access to college or university education in rural areas, and good incentives for young people in rural areas to seek higher education, over time could rural areas be turned purple or would you just start churning out educated Republicans?
I honestly don't think this boils down to access to higher education. I think this is a failing in the traditional education system, and especially a responsibility of the individual states, as they hold the purview for education. Civics education is obviously weak and not getting the level of exposure required to develop an informed electorate. Civics education, like media literacy education, should start in grade school and the development of these basic tenets of our society should be entrenched equally across the country. It should not come down to one state believing in one series of facts because they are controlled by one ideological position. I think this is the greatest weakness of Americans and why/how other nations are attacking and defeating the United States.
On the higher ed thing, I think education should be accessible and free to anyone who wants it. Education is the great equalizer, which is why wannabe authoritarians immediately weaken and limit access to the education systems. If America, or any nation for that matter, wants to be a world leader they need to have a highly educated workforce and electorate. So anyone who wants to better themselves should have access to education and it should not lead to a punitive state (punishing student debt) that limits or restricts our liberties and freedoms.
Quote:
I'm curious about whether the urban/rural divide has much overlap with the educated/non-educated divide?
Very much so. Rural people tend to get basic education and then enter the workforce. This is not a statement about limitations on their ability to learn, just a statement on the cultural state of those regions. Leveraging a fairly accurate stereotype, expectations are you (hopefully) get a high school diploma, marry your high school sweetheart, and follow in the foot steps of your father for your career. Going off to get that fancy education is almost looked down upon in some parts of the country, so this is a barrier that needs to be broken down as well. Interestingly, the kids that do end up in higher ed from these locations usually contribute to the drain from rural areas because of the lack of opportunity in their home communities and the ability to pay off that student loan debt. So a kid that goes to school to become a doctor that could service their local community can no longer afford to go home and become that doctor because of crippling student debt. Another one of those systemic catch 22s.
Quote:
Obviously I don't know nothing about nothing, or if even such an initiative would be possible to implement federally. I'm sure Republican states wouldn't take too kindly to the idea.
The really don't like it. It is why red states lag way behind blue states in education and education outcomes. I would like to believe this could change, but I just don't see it happening. Keeping the electorate dumb is the best way to maintain your grip on power.
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Did you not see the furor over the Texas governor reducing the number of polling stations before voting day? It just so happens that the most affected areas were minority populations, I'm sure that was just a coincidence though
Also take a look at voter ID regulations that the Republicans have been pushing hard for years now, which make it more difficult to vote in poorer areas which are again mostly minority populations. That's not even taking into account taking time off to actually vote, easy to do as a white collar worker, but vastly more difficult if you're juggling multiple minimum wage jobs that won't give you time off to go vote
i remember hearing about texas... they got rid of all but one drop box per county for early voting or something like that - that's total bs.
i didn't hear about the reduced polling stations - that's pretty brutal.
i never thought about taking time off work for voting. i know before i was self employed i'd just go vote after my work day.
__________________ "...and there goes Finger up the middle on Luongo!" - Jim Hughson, Av's vs. 'Nucks
Did you not see the furor over the Texas governor reducing the number of polling stations before voting day? It just so happens that the most affected areas were minority populations, I'm sure that was just a coincidence though
Also take a look at voter ID regulations that the Republicans have been pushing hard for years now, which make it more difficult to vote in poorer areas which are again mostly minority populations. That's not even taking into account taking time off to actually vote, easy to do as a white collar worker, but vastly more difficult if you're juggling multiple minimum wage jobs that won't give you time off to go vote
It's exactly this.
They aren't saying "you're Black/Latinx/Minority therefore you can't vote, or that there are extra steps or surpression of the vote because you're Black/Latinx/Minority".
They're looking at things that minorities have in common that white people don't and then putting up roadblocks under the guise of "voter fraud".
So white people stand back and say "well that doesn't really affect me, who doesn't have a photo ID? Who can't drive across town to drop off a ballot in the only ballot box in the city? I mean if it prevents fraud that's a small step to take." Meanwhile minorities are less likely to have photo ID, they're more reliant on public transportation, which in turn takes longer, which in turn may cause them to miss a shift at work, therefore they don't vote early. Then the question becomes will they be able to on eleciton day itself? They might not if it's a hassle to get to the voting station, they have to wait in a long line, and just worked a long shift.
Imagine if Habs, Leafs, Jets, and Canucks fans could vote any time during the month prior to a federal election on their phones, but Flames and Oilers fans had to drive to Red Deer to drop off a paper ballot while wearing a current team jersey if they wanted to vote early. Yes, you still can vote early, but it's effectively surpressing Albertans' votes without actually outright stating that Albertans are being targeted (because in theory it's also affecting people like me).
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New Era - thanks for your post. i'm wondering if you could clarify/expand on one point....
are there less places to vote making it more difficult?
i can't imagine that they are denied access to a voting location due to skin colour becuz that would be all over the news.
i'm just curious as to some examples.
it's quite sad and totally not right if stuff is happening to restrict people from voting.
This is an example of the systemic racism that impacts people of color. Yes, it is harder to vote for black and brown people, and yes it has been documented in the media. Voter ID laws greatly impact black and brown people more than they impact white people.
I find it funny that people refuse to believe in the existence of systemic racism when the constitution of the United States has the very language that initiated systemic racism codified in the language of the document itself. The 3/5th compromise, granted to bring the southern slave owning states into the union, clearly states the inequity that black people are forced to live through. Any yes, those very same states have grand father clauses that allow them to continue to push systemic racism and disenfranchisement of minorities. This is still a massive problem in the country and something that needs to be resolved for real equity to be established.
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Yeah, it's much harder for blacks to vote. First of all, it's not like us, who can just pop in after work for 5 minutes and vote for one thing.
1. The polling station is too far away.
2. Don't have ID (blacks born before i think 1960 have no birth certificates and can't get id)
3. No election laws for work to give you 3 hours. Some blacks are poor, they can't afford to take a day off to go vote.
Mail in voting really solved some of these issues this time, perhaps flipping a state like Georgia.
Everyone should read Ta-Nehisi Coates' Between the World and Me. I discusses a lot of disconnects that blacks have with the world that you could not imagine.
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Imagine if Habs, Leafs, Jets, and Canucks fans could vote any time during the month prior to a federal election on their phones, but Flames and Oilers fans had to drive to Red Deer to drop off a paper ballot while wearing a current team jersey if they wanted to vote early. Yes, you still can vote early, but it's effectively surpressing Albertans' votes without actually outright stating that Albertans are being targeted (because in theory it's also affecting people like me).
That's a great analogy (especially for this forum). And it really is how it works down here. If you're working hourly, odds are, you can't afford to miss a paycheck. The option of just "taking time off" to go vote isn't possible for a lot of people.
Having such an emphasis on mail in ballots this election will hopefully change things moving forward, and provide more access to disadvantaged communities.
The GOP knows the more votes there are, the less likely they are to win.
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I'd like to see someone test whether a vote has actual value in the US and so create the conditions for a class action lawsuit, if Georgia or Texas had to pay every black voter who's vote was made more difficult 50 or 100 bucks that **** would stop fairlry quickly
It's never really been about legit legal challenges. This administration has never had any interest in doing anything within the bounds of the legal system. It's just about winning the PR war. That's why Rudy is there. He's not going to the work of preparing any serious challenges. He's just there for the social media.
So much of what's going on with the Republicans who are still on the Trump train now is performative. They're acting the way that someone who is drinking their koolaid would expect them to act. It's all about undermining public belief in the election itself and in the legal system.
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"Before William Barr became President Donald Trump’s choice to lead the U.S. Department of Justice, he represented Caterpillar Inc, a Fortune 100 company, in a federal criminal investigation by the department.
Much was at stake for Caterpillar: Since 2018, the Internal Revenue Service has been demanding $2.3 billion in payments from the company in connection with the tax matters under criminal investigation. The company is contesting that finding.
A week after Barr was nominated for the job of attorney general, Justice officials in Washington told the investigative team in the active criminal probe of Caterpillar to take “no further action” in the case, according to an email written by one of the agents and reviewed by Reuters."
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