Hong Kong Activist Joshua Wong quits and other China news

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Well, it's hardly new for Canada to be critical of China's human rights record while being quick to welcome Chinese money.

Anyways, maybe you missed my first point, that targeting visas will hurt Canada, strengthen the CCP and not hurt China in any way. What is the point in choosing that method as a response? It's stupid. I would hope the government finds another, smarter way.

The Canadian government already does this with many countries. This is nothing new and has been in place for years. When Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea, visa restrictions to Canada were placed on Russian citizens. I know for a fact it's hard as hell for Russians to come to visit here. It's still possible, but not without jumping through many hoops and some good luck. That's the whole point of visa restrictions; make it difficult for people to visit in the hopes that they complain to their leaders and eventually changes are made.

Can you tell me how did those visa restrictions hurt everyday Canadian citizens? How did it strengthen Russia, like you say it would strengthen China? At one point before Romania was EU, Romania had lax visa entry to Canada, and blatant corruption and human rights abuse caused Canada to reverse that after 6 months. How was Canada hurt and Romania made stronger from that? Canada took a stand on what was happening in those countries and one way to do that is act on visa issuances. All countries do it. It's nothing new ever since international travel was a thing.

It's not stupid like you say. It's very much a thing, and Canada needs to adjust their visa policy with China in accordance with their recent actions. After all, ease of visa entry to Canada is based on the 7 things I wrote in my original post;

socio-economic conditions
immigration issues
travel document integrity
safety and security issues
border management
human rights issues
bilateral considerations

Immediately, three of those points pop out as being a concern. 4, 6 and 7. So it makes no sense to keep our visa regulations with China the same. Those are our stipulations to easily visit Canada and China has broken them. Changes should be made in accordance with our own policy.

If anything, your post of sitting by and watching what Australia and America and how it plays out is what's foolish. Sit by and do nothing, that is your solution? Be reactive instead of proactive? Obviously it's a complex issue as, like it or not, China is intertwined in our economy. And it will be painful to break that hold. But Canada will need to go through some short-term pain for long-term gain with China. In a country of 38M vs 1.4B it's going to be a monumental task. But sitting by and hoping the US and Australia figure out how to do it is not feasible for now and the future.

[Scroopy Noopers]

For those keeping track at home:

Everyone needs China.
China doesn’t need anybody.

I’m not sure how this makes any sense. The only way they will change is from global economic pressure.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

The Canadian government already does this with many countries. This is nothing new and has been in place for years. When Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea, visa restrictions to Canada were placed on Russian citizens. I know for a fact it's hard as hell for Russians to come to visit here. It's still possible, but not without jumping through many hoops and some good luck. That's the whole point of visa restrictions; make it difficult for people to visit in the hopes that they complain to their leaders and eventually changes are made.

Can you tell me how did those visa restrictions hurt everyday Canadian citizens? How did it strengthen Russia, like you say it would strengthen China? At one point before Romania was EU, Romania had lax visa entry to Canada, and blatant corruption and human rights abuse caused Canada to reverse that after 6 months. How was Canada hurt and Romania made stronger from that? Canada took a stand on what was happening in those countries and one way to do that is act on visa issuances. All countries do it. It's nothing new ever since international travel was a thing.

It's not stupid like you say. It's very much a thing, and Canada needs to adjust their visa policy with China in accordance with their recent actions. After all, ease of visa entry to Canada is based on the 7 things I wrote in my original post;

socio-economic conditions
immigration issues
travel document integrity
safety and security issues
border management
human rights issues
bilateral considerations

Immediately, three of those points pop out as being a concern. 4, 6 and 7. So it makes no sense to keep our visa regulations with China the same. Those are our stipulations to easily visit Canada and China has broken them. Changes should be made in accordance with our own policy.

If anything, your post of sitting by and watching what Australia and America and how it plays out is what's foolish. Sit by and do nothing, that is your solution? Be reactive instead of proactive? Obviously it's a complex issue as, like it or not, China is intertwined in our economy. And it will be painful to break that hold. But Canada will need to go through some short-term pain for long-term gain with China. In a country of 38M vs 1.4B it's going to be a monumental task. But sitting by and hoping the US and Australia figure out how to do it is not feasible for now and the future.

When did Russian, Ukrainian or Romanian students represent a 4 billion dollar contribution to the economy in Canada each year? Or when did those countries have the largest number of students going on to be top-tier researchers in critical industries for the future, such as AI?

The US, with its current moves to restrict visas stands to lose 32% of the world's top AI talent. Is that a recipe for success? Canada should be jumping at the opportunity to bring those students and workers in, including those from China. The more of that talent that goes on to China, the more China benefits.

I would agree that Canada should, long ago, have spent more time looking at investment immigration and people exploiting loopholes to move large sums of money into Canada, often money gained illegally. But punitive action against the majority who come as students or doing business should not be viewed as necessary. They are people making big contributions to Canada's economy. Research also indicates that Chinese students who feel discriminated against just turn to support the CCP more, and the effect is most dramatic among those who were initially most open to accepting democratic ideals. Already inside China there is a turning away from the West as a result of Trump's trade war. It's not weakening support for the CCP. It's strengthening support.

Really, why are you insisting that visa restrictions must be the way to go, as if punishing the average Chinese student or business person and the Canadian schools and businesses that work with them is the only way the country can respond?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The US and Australia are happily going headlong into labeling China an enemy.

Thing is, China *is* the enemy of Canada. Their leadership wants to exploit Canada's markets,steal Canadian technology, and muzzle Canadian media.

Has normalizing relations led to Chinese government reform, as was the theory behind opening up trade and diplomatic relations since the shunning of China began shifting towards that normalization in the 1970s? No, instead we now rely on that system's continued functioning to supply myriad goods cheaply. We have (unsurprisingly) chosen money over principle through the magic of pretending we could have both.

However, the Chinese are also dependent on the West to buy those goods, and the time to use that power is now, before their internal markets mature enough to lessen that dependence to a point where they can survive censure and disengagement. Symbolic gestures like tightening visa restrictions are a start - especially if those gestures carry consequences to us, as it signals Canada is serious enough about our displeasure to be willing to suffer a bit to convey it.

PS: We also shouldn't be resigned to China trying to recover national pride with its bellicose military posturing and aggressive diplomacy. Invoking the wrongs and humiliation of bygone colonialism to justify a yearning for prestige and power is laughable when performed by a regime that is colonizing Tibet and Xinjiang in the present day. They certainly learned one lesson well from the colonizers: make your hypocrisy brazen and back it with guns.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by jammies

Thing is, China *is* the enemy of Canada. Their leadership wants to exploit Canada's markets,steal Canadian technology, and muzzle Canadian media.

Not much to add to this except the CCP is brazenly flaunting their international agreements when they disagree, and enforcing them when they agree. Case in point with the intellectual property rights, the Sino-British joint declaration of Hong Kong (using double speak simultaneously saying the document is out of date and no longer applies to them, while at the same time criticizing the British for breaking their promise under the agreement when the CCP had already broken it), and now with the HK National Security law.

This has been a constant degradation in what would be considered multilateral mutual cooperation, to a place where the CCP is trying to unilaterally dictate terms to foreign citizens, on foreign soil, by applying CCP law abroad violating other country's sovereignty.

To accept that and do nothing is tacit acceptance of that behaviour. There really isn't any tools a country can use to discourage the CCP other than economic, trade, visa restrictions, or direct sanctions all of which directly or indirectly hurt the regular Chinese citizen and the CCP media outlets will have no trouble spinning as an attack on the Chinese people unfortunately. It'll hurt regular Canadians too tho.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Really, why are you insisting that visa restrictions must be the way to go, as if punishing the average Chinese student or business person and the Canadian schools and businesses that work with them is the only way the country can respond?

TBH Canada doesn't have many options in it's arsenal of retaliatory actions they can take. We can't intimidate them. Can't attack them or push them around. We are greatly outnumbered in population so an attempted PR campaign wouldn't work. Truthfully our hands are tied unless it's a coordinated world-wide effort to suppress the CCP. But Canada has in the past issued visa restrictions to many authoritarian regimes who have played roles in human rights abuse. It's one of the few tactics we do have.

I should also point out that visa restrictions doesn't mean a ban on Chinese travelers as a whole. You might be mistaken in thinking I'm advocate for a full Chinese traveler ban to Canada but that is not what I mean. The term restricted could for example mean student visas are issued for only higher top tier students. Business/work visas issued for only certain companies. Approving maybe only 75% of tourist visa applications. Restrictions like these already exist for many countries and it allows the highly skilled and intelligent individuals we want to come here, while still showing that Canada stands for it's values and won't be an open country to those kind of regimes.

I also think that this kind of action is probably already being considered if things escalate between our nations. It will be likely be instituted at some in the future if the CCP continues to act aggressively towards us. Canada has done it in the past so it might be only a matter of time.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

When did Russian, Ukrainian or Romanian students represent a 4 billion dollar contribution to the economy in Canada each year? Or when did those countries have the largest number of students going on to be top-tier researchers in critical industries for the future, such as AI?

The US, with its current moves to restrict visas stands to lose 32% of the world's top AI talent. Is that a recipe for success? Canada should be jumping at the opportunity to bring those students and workers in, including those from China. The more of that talent that goes on to China, the more China benefits.

I would agree that Canada should, long ago, have spent more time looking at investment immigration and people exploiting loopholes to move large sums of money into Canada, often money gained illegally. But punitive action against the majority who come as students or doing business should not be viewed as necessary. They are people making big contributions to Canada's economy. Research also indicates that Chinese students who feel discriminated against just turn to support the CCP more, and the effect is most dramatic among those who were initially most open to accepting democratic ideals. Already inside China there is a turning away from the West as a result of Trump's trade war. It's not weakening support for the CCP. It's strengthening support.

Really, why are you insisting that visa restrictions must be the way to go, as if punishing the average Chinese student or business person and the Canadian schools and businesses that work with them is the only way the country can respond?

The bolded sounds like an argument the rich sports franchise owners make when they want government funding for their stadiums.

And I don't think anyone is assuming any of these moves are going to hurt the popularity of the CCP.

If that ever happens - it will because the US feels threatened by them and continues to pressure other countries to move away from China to the point their economy declines. This will be harder than it was with the Soviet Union because China has smartly thrown their wealth around so hurting the Chinese economy also means hurting the US and their partner's economy.

[FlameOn]

Both Australia and Canada have suspended their extradition treaties with Hong Kong now. UK, US, and Ireland are said to be considering the same. EU probably won't do it though since the Germans seemed think risking their economic ties with China over Hong Kong wouldn't be worth it.

Here are the countries that had extradition treaties with Hong Kong prior to the NSL.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53344013
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/can...-law-1.5636479

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

TBH Canada doesn't have many options in it's arsenal of retaliatory actions they can take. We can't intimidate them. Can't attack them or push them around. We are greatly outnumbered in population so an attempted PR campaign wouldn't work. Truthfully our hands are tied unless it's a coordinated world-wide effort to suppress the CCP. But Canada has in the past issued visa restrictions to many authoritarian regimes who have played roles in human rights abuse. It's one of the few tactics we do have.

I should also point out that visa restrictions doesn't mean a ban on Chinese travelers as a whole. You might be mistaken in thinking I'm advocate for a full Chinese traveler ban to Canada but that is not what I mean. The term restricted could for example mean student visas are issued for only higher top tier students. Business/work visas issued for only certain companies. Approving maybe only 75% of tourist visa applications. Restrictions like these already exist for many countries and it allows the highly skilled and intelligent individuals we want to come here, while still showing that Canada stands for it's values and won't be an open country to those kind of regimes.

I also think that this kind of action is probably already being considered if things escalate between our nations. It will be likely be instituted at some in the future if the CCP continues to act aggressively towards us. Canada has done it in the past so it might be only a matter of time.

Putting more restrictions and controls around foreign direct investment could be done. Putting more restrictions on Chinese products in key sectors of Canada's market could be done. Putting restrictions on research partnerships could be done. Scrutinizing and limiting Chinese influence campaigns in Canadian universities could be done. Providing incentive packages and funding for domestic Canadian companies to develop competitive products in key sectors to reduce demand for imported products and services could be done. Accelerating pathways for Hong Kongers or other Chinese with claims to political persecution to gain Canadian citizenship could be done. Providing attractive pathways for relocation of Hong Kong businesses to Canada, as Australia is now doing, could be done. Even changing the taxation agreements that protect Canadian citizens from double taxation on income gained in China could be done. All of these are things that could be done by the Canadian government. I'm sure there is much more.

Insisting on visa restrictions when they're not going to impact China negatively but will impact Canada negatively is just cutting off our nose to spite our face. It still just looks like a bad idea, and small symbolic restrictions on visas would just send a message to the average Chinese person that Chinese are less welcome in Canada while again not achieving anything. I haven't really seen any argument yet that shows how doing so would have any desirable outcome.

Whatever the Canadian government chooses to do, I just hope it is done out of clever and tactical consideration of Canada's long-term interests and not out of being caught up in a wave of nationalist populism championed by our neighbors to the south.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The bolded sounds like an argument the rich sports franchise owners make when they want government funding for their stadiums.

How is it comparable to private sports franchises asking tax payers to fund their development?

Taxpayers don't fund international students. International students actually pay very high fees. Those fees also help fund services for Canadians that attend the same institutions, and provide Canadian jobs. Canadian education is something that is sold to the world by Canadian institutions, and international students are their customers.

Visa restrictions that cut back the $4B contributed by Chinese students would just mean less money for Canadian schools, universities, colleges, training centres and the communities around them. It also means less taxes paid to support services for Canadian taxpayers. How is that desirable for Canadians, particularly in a time of economic uncertainty?

Beyond students, China is also a massive and fast-growing outbound tourism market, forecast to be worth $250B by around 2025. If Canadian businesses that profit from the Chinese tourist market would like to continue seeing that business, does that make them comparable to sports franchise owners asking for public funds?

Really, wouldn't it be nice if Canadian businesses could continue making money off these markets while regular Chinese people get to have a positive experience of Canada and take those positive memories and positive outlook on Canadian life home with them? They might even carry those positive experiences with them for a lifetime and be positively disposed towards Canadian culture, products and services. How is that not the most desirable outcome for Canadians?

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

And I don't think anyone is assuming any of these moves are going to hurt the popularity of the CCP.

So, again, why does it make sense for Canada? It wouldn't hurt the CCP. It would just limit the opportunity for Canadian institutions and businesses to make money and provide employment.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

If that ever happens - it will because the US feels threatened by them and continues to pressure other countries to move away from China to the point their economy declines. This will be harder than it was with the Soviet Union because China has smartly thrown their wealth around so hurting the Chinese economy also means hurting the US and their partner's economy.

Agreed. This is what it's largely all about. The US cannot tolerate challenges to American hegemony. If China became democratic tomorrow and the CCP were voted back in by a populace that is actually generally very supportive of them, the US wouldn't suddenly embrace China as an ally. Even if the treatment of the Uighurs was completely changed, the US would not embrace China. The issue is that there is essentially an established world order under the US, and it's a world order that strongly favours the US and Western allies. China is a global rival in power now that wants to assert itself in the region and establish a separate order under its own relationships with other countries, and the US cannot tolerate that.

[CaptainCrunch]

It looks like Canada has a major trade inbalance with China where we bring in $48 billion and export 15 billion, if I'm reading the chart right, and it represents the largest trade imbalance of all of the relationships that we have.


Maybe its time to encourage other countries to replace what China is selling us.

[Fuzz]

JohhnnyB, your entire argument seems to revolve around how China is good for Canada economically. Do you understand that many of us are willing to sacrifice that, and build new relationships with countries we don't think are ruled by a horrible government that shows a continued pattern of worsening international cooperation? Why would we want to contain to tie ourselves to that? For a few bucks? Canada doesn't live or die by it's relationship with China. Many other international students will take their place.

[GirlySports]

Johnny is right, it's all beneficial to us economically but not socially, and we have chosen the economic route. We want cheaper products.

If the University cannot get the 3x money from Chinese exchange students, they'll just raise normal tuition. Plus Chinese put money in the banks to keep them stable. Also they raise the price of our houses, which is good if we own a house, not so good if we don't. For decades now, we have chosen the $500 75" tv over human rights. There's no turning back.

In Canada, we don't have the polarizing political fight like in the States. We don't view Chinese students or the University of Calgary as liberal issues that will bring down the world. I do not understand why Harvard had to declare this early that all classes be done online, without considering that this Trump government would send visa students home. I think Harvard tried to make a statement and got counter punched in the gut. You can easily run 50/50 classes with social distancing and masks, which is what U of C, and most other universities are going to do. Even if 1 out of 5 of the international students classes were on site, ICE cannot revoke their visa.

[Fuzz]

What do you mean "there is no turning back"? That's pretty defeatist. Oh no, no Chinese money in our banks! So what?


It's depressing how willing you are to just accept that we turn ourselves over to the whims the the Chinese government. Have some self respect.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What do you mean "there is no turning back"? That's pretty defeatist. Oh no, no Chinese money in our banks! So what?

It's depressing how willing you are to just accept that we turn ourselves over to the whims the the Chinese government. Have some self respect.

Hah, I'm the anti-chinese person here. I actually agree with ICE revoking of international student visa for online classes.

Accept that we turn ourselves over? We already have, 100 times.

I don't see how we turn back now. We are a country run by for-profit business who have chosen to cater to the Chinese market. Are we just going to change? Ok, let's start. Let's pledge on CP to never go to China ever again, that's a good start.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What do you mean "there is no turning back"? That's pretty defeatist. Oh no, no Chinese money in our banks! So what?


It's depressing how willing you are to just accept that we turn ourselves over to the whims the the Chinese government. Have some self respect.

Countries have already started to move away from Chinese manufacturing, I don't understand when people say there's no turning back. These aren't pacts to the death, they're manufacturing centers.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Let's pledge on CP to never go to China ever again, that's a good start.

Read pages 3 and 4 of this thread.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

It looks like Canada has a major trade inbalance with China where we bring in $48 billion and export 15 billion, if I'm reading the chart right, and it represents the largest trade imbalance of all of the relationships that we have.


Maybe its time to encourage other countries to replace what China is selling us.

Trump's tariffs are doing this for us a fair bit I'm sure. Lots of Canadian imports are a small piece of North American wide imports (i.e companies support Canada and the US). Those companies are trying to avoid China to avoid the tariffs and they aren't going to leave the small Canada business in China and move the bigger chunk to Vietnam. They'll just move it all.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

JohhnnyB, your entire argument seems to revolve around how China is good for Canada economically. Do you understand that many of us are willing to sacrifice that, and build new relationships with countries we don't think are ruled by a horrible government that shows a continued pattern of worsening international cooperation? Why would we want to contain to tie ourselves to that? For a few bucks? Canada doesn't live or die by it's relationship with China. Many other international students will take their place.

Do you understand that my points in response to HuntingWhale have all been about how stupid it is to target visas in particular?

The issue of visas is also not, as Girly suggests, about us wanting cheaper products. The issue of visas is largely about selling our cultural experiences and educational products where Chinese are the customers, and in the case of students they are customers actually paying for Canadian institutions to tell them how to think. What is the point in targeting that of all things?

I mean, CaptainCrunch points out the trade imbalance as a problem, but selling fewer Canadian products to Chinese consumers is a good thing?

There actually is a strategic benefit for Canada in selling Canadian cultural and educational products and I don't see any compromise of Canadian values in continuing to do so.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Johnny is right, it's all beneficial to us economically but not socially, and we have chosen the economic route. We want cheaper products.

Can you expand your thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by GirlySports

If the University cannot get the 3x money from Chinese exchange students, they'll just raise normal tuition. Plus Chinese put money in the banks to keep them stable. Also they raise the price of our houses, which is good if we own a house, not so good if we don't. For decades now, we have chosen the $500 75" tv over human rights. There's no turning back.

I agree totally with things like what Vancouver has done in trying to control housing prices being driven up by foreign buyers. Measures like that should be taken to protect the interests of locals. At the same time, when 'they' become citizens then 'they' are us.

This is also not just an issue related to China. The same could be said of rich foreign buyers from India and other countries. It's an issue of how the combination of Canadian immigration policy and enforcement along with the Canadian job market make it relatively easy for those with money to settle in Canada while those merely coming in with skills struggle to find a place. It's also just a product of huge numbers new millionaires being created all over the place in the developing and emerging markets of the world as their economies grow. Unless Canada adopts rules preventing foreign property ownership it is almost an inevitability that it will make houses less affordable for many Canadians, because there are just a lot more people with money in the world now than there used to be.

Regardless of where they're coming from though, when they become citizens, they are one of us.