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Old 05-15-2019, 01:56 PM   #181
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Could you imagine if this guy was GM?
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:08 PM   #182
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What does two more years get him at Sam's percentage cap hit? Reasonably strong argument to be made that he's not going to turn into much more than what he is now. Further, the team would hold the hammer with regards to negotiating yet another contract in two years.

Again, if he's smart, he understands his career is short and should be looking to get +/- 10 million under his belt. There are no guarantees he's in a better negotiating spot in those two years from now. I'd say it's unlikely.
Well 4.4 to 4.7 million over the next two years isn't exactly nothing. Being a 25 year old with one more RFA year leftin July 2021 and over 10 million in the career earnings is hardly being in a bad position. He should still have 5 more years left at least come that time.

If he's worried he'll be out of the league in 4 years type of thing...than that is a player you do walk away from. I would hope he has enough belief in himself to think he's got at least 10 more years to play in this league and that he will be worth more in 2 years than he is today.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:25 PM   #183
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Well 4.4 to 4.7 million over the next two years isn't exactly nothing. Being a 25 year old with one more RFA year leftin July 2021 and over 10 million in the career earnings is hardly being in a bad position. He should still have 5 more years left at least come that time.

If he's worried he'll be out of the league in 4 years type of thing...than that is a player you do walk away from. I would hope he has enough belief in himself to think he's got at least 10 more years to play in this league and that he will be worth more in 2 years than he is today.
Agreed, he's likely going to have another 10 years left in his career. He's going to have to be somewhat wise about how and when he chooses to negotiate his deals. The one year argument makes no sense whatsoever. Even if he takes a significant step forward, he still has three seasons prior of less than impressive stats. Hardly the type of record you go into a negotiation with expecting to hit a home run. For Bennett to increase his rank among the NHL payscale, he's going to have to have yearS of sustained improvement. Look no further than William Karlson.

My opinion is Sams best bet is to sign a mid term deal at low-mid dollars and just concentrate on improving his on ice play.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:33 PM   #184
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As much as I like him as a player, I personally think that for Sam Bennett he would be best served by getting a short term deal in Calgary and then going somewhere where he will get real opportunities in the top six. The rumours of the flames going out after another top 6 winger tells me that Peters and Tre don't see Bennett supplanting any of our existing top 6 and so Bennett's minutes will always be heavily limited here.

I wish we could keep him and I think with his skating ability and hard nosed play he will last in this league a long time, and the cliff for a guy who can skate is much further out than for guys who are already slow.

If Bennett can sign a two year deal for stajan money then that is a fair deal for both team and player.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:43 PM   #185
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I would be pushing for something around or below 4.0M by 8Y, but willing to up to 4.80 if that's what it takes for the 8 year term.
This needs to be ridiculed more, good lord.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:42 PM   #186
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I actually thought the 4.8 was a typo but then I re-read the first part and realized he meant what he typed.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:13 PM   #187
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I actually thought the 4.8 was a typo but then I re-read the first part and realized he meant what he typed.
Easy to figure out GranteedEV ‘s salary rationale when he actually BELIEVES Sam Bennett consistently provides the following attributes for the Flames, as HE POSTED:

Executing precise breakout plays in the defensive zone in traffic (he's the best forward on the team at that)
Reading defensive passing lanes.
Covering the neutral zone with his positioning
Covering the front of the net defensively (as a center)
Helping his defensemen behind the net defensively (as a center moreso)

Effectiveness on zone entries (contrary to popular belief, no, he doesn't just go for a toe drag every time. People just dislike toe drags so much it clouds their perception)
Some of the more deceptive playmaking on our roster when he does have some confidence.
Creates a lot of chances with short passes

There is a lot of reason to see that what he brings to his line and team are positive beyond being "competitive" and "physical". The "Bennett has Low IQ" crowd is incredulous with how fixated on minor things like toe drags (which aren't even the negative they are made out to be) and miss the forest for the trees with the player.


Yep, some of us are “ missing the forest for the trees” and how did we possibly “allow our perception to become so clouded”?

Yeah, you justified and verified everything ... so that’s the ticket to 4.8 mil per for 8 years.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:14 PM   #188
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I would be pushing for something around or below 4.0M by 8Y, but willing to up to 4.80 if that's what it takes for the 8 year term.
Bennett has consistently been a difference maker and one of the best forwards during three separate playoffs. It would be wonderful if he could elevate his game to, somewhere around that level, during the regular season.



I really really like Bennett and would love him to sign a long term deal.


...but gross
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:20 PM   #189
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Thought he was implying over $4 million by the end of the deal but no, think he’s saying AAV.

I admire the defending of Bennett and he has a few fair points. But when Bennett is one of your best forwards, well we saw how that turned out in the Colorado series. He is simply not a difference maker at this point. End of story. $4.5 million over 2 years.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:45 PM   #190
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Thought he was implying over $4 million by the end of the deal but no, think he’s saying AAV.

I admire the defending of Bennett and he has a few fair points. But when Bennett is one of your best forwards, well we saw how that turned out in the Colorado series. He is simply not a difference maker at this point. End of story. $4.5 million over 2 years.
Colorado series?

The lack of effectiveness of the top duo, and overmatched Hamonic- Hanifin duo was more of the story, as well as failure to adapt game plan.

Bennett as difference maker can’t make up the -30 shot in goal differential

Weird take

Put Bennett with Backlund and Tkachuk all year and he likely exceeds Frolik production
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:51 PM   #191
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Colorado series?

The lack of effectiveness of the top duo, and overmatched Hamonic- Hanifin duo was more of the story, as well as failure to adapt game plan.

Bennett as difference maker can’t make up the -30 shot in goal differential

Weird take

Put Bennett with Backlund and Tkachuk all year and he likely exceeds Frolik production
You just made my point. Thank you.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:06 PM   #192
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Colorado series?

The lack of effectiveness of the top duo, and overmatched Hamonic- Hanifin duo was more of the story, as well as failure to adapt game plan.

Bennett as difference maker can’t make up the -30 shot in goal differential

Weird take

Put Bennett with Backlund and Tkachuk all year and he likely exceeds Frolik production
That's kind of the point. Bennett playing amazing was not a Bennett that could steal a game or even help majorly change it to a win.

Right now he is what he is - a third liner that has an ability to show some serious jam and physicality when it matters. But not one that can light up a scoresheet and take over a game offensively other than a few one offs over the years.

The idea that he's a $4mil player right now is ludicrous and the poster took it even further saying he would be okay with $4.8. And none of that should take away from the work Bennett as put in and the results of a tenacious, physical third liner that every team needs. It's just his salary valuation that's insane.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:33 PM   #193
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Looking back, Bennett played with the two worst forwards on the Flames for most of the season (Jankowski and Neal). At the start of the season, it seemed great on paper.

Bennett needs real linemates! Tkachuk and Backlund sound perfect.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:41 PM   #194
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That's kind of the point. Bennett playing amazing was not a Bennett that could steal a game or even help majorly change it to a win.

Right now he is what he is - a third liner that has an ability to show some serious jam and physicality when it matters. But not one that can light up a scoresheet and take over a game offensively other than a few one offs over the years.

The idea that he's a $4mil player right now is ludicrous and the poster took it even further saying he would be okay with $4.8. And none of that should take away from the work Bennett as put in and the results of a tenacious, physical third liner that every team needs. It's just his salary valuation that's insane.

Fair, I wouldn’t expect him to get 4 million

I think Bennett’s agent has a point to be supported statistically with points per 60, quality of linemates, etc that supports an argument in favour of sustained elevated role (although a coaching decision), and short term is the way to go.

But when Bennett is playing effectively when the team stars are MIA, it is unfair and disingenuous to hang team results on Bennett

How often is a third line / sometime second line guy a difference maker when the top 3/6 are flat as a pancake?

Maybe a game here and there but never in a full playoff series (contrary examples are welcome)
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:43 PM   #195
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You just made my point. Thank you.
Respectfully, I don’t get that.

He is not prime Kipper or Iggy.

But nobody is saying he should be expected to be the top paid guy on the team
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:56 PM   #196
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Respectfully, I don’t get that.

He is not prime Kipper or Iggy.

But nobody is saying he should be expected to be the top paid guy on the team
Respectfully? After the “what a weird take” comment? OK sure.

Bennett has done nothing to prove he is a $4 million plus player which is what I was referencing. He has yet to be much of a difference maker, which is far different than “hanging the Colorado series” on him. In fact he played rather well.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:02 PM   #197
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Could you imagine if this guy was GM?
If I were GM, I assure you we would not be on the hook for Mike Stone, James Neal, or Troy Brouwer's buyout.

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But when Bennett is one of your best forwards, well we saw how that turned out in the Colorado series. He is simply not a difference maker at this point.
Um, this is horrid logic. Sam Bennett was eighth among forwards on the team in ice time despite being arguably our best forward. All that tells us is that he was grossly underutilized when he could have been more of a difference maker. Of course you can't be a difference maker when you're sitting on the bench.

You might have a point if Bennett were playing center and logging the most minutes on the team, as Mikael Backlund did. You can't give him a demerit for something that was outside of his control as a player.

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That's kind of the point. Bennett playing amazing was not a Bennett that could steal a game or even help majorly change it to a win.
Because he wasn't on the ice after giving us leads in two of those games? Right, so evaluations of players should be made based on when they don't play. Because he made plays to spring Gaudreau (our highest paid player) on multiple breakaways that Gaudreau did not finish?

Yikes.

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The idea that he's a $4mil player right now is ludicrous and the poster took it even further saying he would be okay with $4.8. And none of that should take away from the work Bennett as put in and the results of a tenacious, physical third liner that every team needs. It's just his salary valuation that's insane.
Salary is not independant from term. You simply have to pay more for more term.

Bennett has 3 years of RFA left.

To buy five years of UFA, you need to increase salary.

If he is valued at 2.5M on a 2 year deal (which is what he will most likely end up signing, by the way) that does not mean that is in the best interest of the team.

Getting him locked up from ages 23 to 30 is extremely pragmatic, and penny-pinching to save a few bucks now is not in the best interest of the team especially if it means risking a breakout where you're paying him a greater AAV such as 5.5 or 6M on a future contract. Not only do you avoid buying age 31+ years that are guaranteed to be underperforming, you avoid the player walking as a UFA for greener pastures, and there are definitely gonna be greener pastures for this one the minute he gets out from the glass ceiling that is the illogical Calgary Flames.

It's not even an overpayment for a middle six forward. We pay an older, less versatile Frolik 4.5M a year to dissappear in every playoffs and that was a contract signed four seasons ago. Elias Lindholm is paid 4.85 and not only had he never even been clearly superior to Bennett at 5v5 (outside of playing way more on a bad team) but that was only for a six year term.

Term is what the Flames should want for both Bennett and Tkachuk. Idealism about guys earning salaries before you pay them is just not realistic in a cap world. You NEED to project and take some degree of risk to maximize term where appropriate. We already botched the Gaudreau contract penny pinching over the kind of AAVs needed to pay a Fantenberg's salary.

Tell me this, since my proposal would be "ludicrous" - What is the AAV you think the Flames CAN get Bennett signed to for an eight year term?

A bridge is NOT always the best solution for both parties.

Finally, let's review what what my absolute upper limit of 4.80M means against an 83 million dollar cap. It's equivelent to:

4.60M in 2018-19
4.34M in 2017-18
4.22M in 2016-17
4.13M in 2015-16
3.99M in 2014-15

For an eight year term for a versatile middle sixer aged 23 to 30, any of these would have been a very solid deal.

But again, my actual opinion is that we should be pushing for around 4.0M x 8Y

That's equivalent to signing someone to 3.325M in 2014-15.

That's the modern equivalent of Matt Stajan's AAV, except for a player actually in or entering his prime, who I think is better than Stajan circa 2015, who has upside to be better than Stajan at any point in Stajan's career.

But sure, call me crazy because you can't see a solution other than a ####ty bridge deal where the Flames either end up losing a valuable piece as he approaches a chance at UFA and a fresh start elsewhere or they end up having to overpay in the future for that same piece because they couldn't be pragmatic when his stock was relatively low.

Eight years of Sam Bennett are certainly worth five percent of the cap in 2019-20, which with cap inflation could end up being a total steal in 2025 and beyond.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:02 PM   #198
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Respectfully? After the “what a weird take” comment? OK sure.

Bennett has done nothing to prove he is a $4 million plus player which is what I was referencing. He has yet to be much of a difference maker, which is far different than “hanging the Colorado series” on him. In fact he played rather well.
Yes, I said respectfully. And meant it.

It’s simple. Bennett could not be a difference maker because he did not play in a series where he could be a difference maker. The Flames got pounded. Their best players weren’t present at the expected level.

You said that as the Colorado series showed, him playing well showed he isn’t a difference maker. I thought it was weird because one guy wasn’t righting that ship.

Here an example. If I played for the Washington Generals, and was really good at basketball and hijinks, we still wouldn’t beat the Globetrotters.

That’s all
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:28 PM   #199
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Yes, I said respectfully. And meant it.

It’s simple. Bennett could not be a difference maker because he did not play in a series where he could be a difference maker. The Flames got pounded. Their best players weren’t present at the expected level.

You said that as the Colorado series showed, him playing well showed he isn’t a difference maker. I thought it was weird because one guy wasn’t righting that ship.

Here an example. If I played for the Washington Generals, and was really good at basketball and hijinks, we still wouldn’t beat the Globetrotters.

That’s all
So your argument for Bennett being worth $4 million plus is what exactly?

Sam played well in the Colorado series. And I still didn’t see a guy I’d commit that kind of money to. Much less over the larger sample size of every game he has played in his career.

You win or lose in the NHL with your best players. Overpaying your 3rd liners almost guarantees you won’t have the best players in any given matchup.

Here’s an example. The Washington Generals have a great reserve point guard who is really good at basketball and hijinks. They pay him lots of money, leaving less for the starters. They are not beating the Globetrotters.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:35 PM   #200
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^ I never said I think Bennett is getting 4 million

You said the series proved he wasn’t a difference maker. A difference maker doesn’t mean play miraculously overcoming and reversing a garbage series from Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamonic, Hanifin, etc and reversing a 30 shot per game differential. It’s often something like a consistent effort and a timely goal here and there in an otherwise competitive game.

Don’t overestimate the reach of my remark
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