Re-charging is a pretty minor logistical problem with myriad possible solutions as demand requires.
I think destination/attraction based charging could be much faster and more convenient than gassing up. Possible solutions:
1. valet parking - yes, it will cost a bit more, but it would be especially convenient in a ski-hill situation. Self-parking is a terrible waste of space when everyone leaves 6 ft between cars (despite employing parking attendants to prevent it). Most ski resorts already charge for regular parking, and we may not be far behind here. AV tech may eventually reduce staffing requirements.
2. Longer cords. Especially in a case where people are leaving their vehicles for 6+ hours, you just add more cords and the charger rotates through the cars. Or attendants comes by throughout the day to swap cords.
3. Battery swapping or inductive charging (lot wide); longer-term, but solutions will stay in stride with the problem.
All of these can apply to a highway service-station or any road-trip attraction.
Building the infrastructure and meeting the energy demand in certain locations is also a challenge, but not exactly insurmountable. There are tons of seasonal resort towns / resort areas...is it so hard to imagine semi-portable chargers that can be relocated to suit demands (LLSR in the winter, up to the lake in summer...)
Does the journey from crude in the ground to become refined gasoline at a gas station in Lake Louise make any more sense? We've had a century to optimize that process to meet massive demand...I think we'll figure out how to get a few more watts out to the divide (or anywhere else we need it).
I know you are just spit balling ideas, but none of this is easy, practical or cheap. People will stick with gas vehicles if these are the solutions.
Anyone else impressed by the design of the Ioniq 5? Gorgeous lines.
I think it looks fantastic and that platform for Hyundai/Kia seems to be awesome. I like the Hyundai better than the Kia for styling but the Kia is marginally better for interior features. The Genesis model looks to be very exciting from reviews that I have seen out of South Korea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by powderjunkie
Re-charging is a pretty minor logistical problem with myriad possible solutions as demand requires.
I think destination/attraction based charging could be much faster and more convenient than gassing up. Possible solutions:
1. valet parking - yes, it will cost a bit more, but it would be especially convenient in a ski-hill situation. Self-parking is a terrible waste of space when everyone leaves 6 ft between cars (despite employing parking attendants to prevent it). Most ski resorts already charge for regular parking, and we may not be far behind here. AV tech may eventually reduce staffing requirements.
It will be interesting to see how destination charging plays out and develops. Businesses are not going to invest a huge sum of money into charging infrastructure without monetizing it. Even with a for-profit model I'm not sure if places like Lake Louise Resort will be interested in making a huge upfront investment to expand charging in the next 3 or 4 years. It is going to require a huge investment/subsidy program from the government or a partnership with some sort of charging company or both.
Last edited by calgarygeologist; 04-17-2022 at 08:29 AM.
It will be interesting to see how destination charging plays out and develops. Businesses are not going to invest a huge sum of money into charging infrastructure without monetizing it. Even with a for-profit model I'm not sure if places like Lake Louise Resort will be interested in making a huge upfront investment to expand charging in the next 3 or 4 years. It is going to require a huge investment/subsidy program from the government or a partnership with some sort of charging company or both.
That already exists to some extent (though it'll need to be scaled up). The government is funding about 50% of the capital costs for a bunch of fast charging stations, and awarded funding for almost 1,000 stations in the last round (as well as some level 2 chargers). For instance, most of the Tesla chargers in Western Canada that are outside of major cities (e.g. Edson, Vegreville, Salmon Arm, Cranbrook, etc.) were about 50% funded by the federal government.
Alberta's charging stations are particularly lacking as well in that area. Lake Louise and Banff don't have a single fast charging station between them (Canmore is the closest); Golden meanwhile has 5 charging locations with 24 stations.
I know you are just spit balling ideas, but none of this is easy, practical or cheap. People will stick with gas vehicles if these are the solutions.
For sure. PHEVs can also fill this gap (though they are arguably the best & worst of both worlds) - daily costs/emissions dramatically reduced, with range available when needed. And they might be the most practical solution for cold climates...over time maybe the ICE can become simpler/leaner (ie. become a generator to feed the electric motor)
Charging time and station congestion has been a discussion since this thread began nearly 3 years ago. I find it concerning that one of the more major infrastructure problems hasn’t really been adequately addressed. And not only that, how are the mountain parks even going to be able to supply that much electricity? Where are the cars going to go while waiting in queue? People think Costco gas stations are a mess; this will look worse than the right-lane on HWY 1 in front of Peter’s during the summer.
I assume once EV owners are willing to pay a practical price for a “fill up” more options will become available no?
I assume once EV owners are willing to pay a practical price for a “fill up” more options will become available no?
This will drive sone development,
The problem is that DC fast charging stations are very expensive, and we don’t really know the full extent of how many are needed.
Not every gas station needs to be converted into a EV charging station. There’s never going to be demand enough for that to make money.
We know there’s going to be need along highway corridors, but beyond that, in cities, what is likely needed for convenience is almost certainly more than what we need for demand.
The problem is that DC fast charging stations are very expensive, and we don’t really know the full extent of how many are needed.
Not every gas station needs to be converted into a EV charging station. There’s never going to be demand enough for that to make money.
We know there’s going to be need along highway corridors, but beyond that, in cities, what is likely needed for convenience is almost certainly more than what we need for demand.
What we need in Canada on the major highway is something similar to those major interstate rest stops (I believe they call them service plazas) that they have in the US. I was blown away by those things the first time I stopped at one in Florida.
What we need in Canada on the major highway is something similar to those major interstate rest stops (I believe they call them service plazas) that they have in the US. I was blown away by those things the first time I stopped at one in Florida.
They have them, though I am not sure if the same scale, all over Ontario. It’s going to be a paradigm shift for people to be okay with waiting a long time, every 200-300km during their road trips, to charge up. What will be people tolerate?
I think it looks fantastic and that platform for Hyundai/Kia seems to be awesome. I like the Hyundai better than the Kia for styling but the Kia is marginally better for interior features. The Genesis model looks to be very exciting from reviews that I have seen out of South Korea.
Awesome looking rig, interior is beautiful with no stupid huge vertical screen and a real steering wheel.
They have them, though I am not sure if the same scale, all over Ontario. It’s going to be a paradigm shift for people to be okay with waiting a long time, every 200-300km during their road trips, to charge up. What will be people tolerate?
Everyday I drive by a costco, where I see a line of people waiting 45 minutes to save $0.15/litre. what
Some good conversation here and this is what is needed to move forward. Maybe no ideal solution exists at the moment but spit balling ideas get's the conversation going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarygeologist
It will be interesting to see how destination charging plays out and develops. Businesses are not going to invest a huge sum of money into charging infrastructure without monetizing it. Even with a for-profit model I'm not sure if places like Lake Louise Resort will be interested in making a huge upfront investment to expand charging in the next 3 or 4 years. It is going to require a huge investment/subsidy program from the government or a partnership with some sort of charging company or both.
Maybe the solution is for governments to front the cost (in whole or in part) and business pays it back through a lien (not sure if that is the correct term) on the property. City of Calgary is doing that IIRC on some types of home upgrades - you pay it back over time with a covenant on the property.
Quote:
Originally Posted by powderjunkie
Re-charging is a pretty minor logistical problem with myriad possible solutions as demand requires.
2. Longer cords. Especially in a case where people are leaving their vehicles for 6+ hours, you just add more cords and the charger rotates through the cars. Or attendants comes by throughout the day to swap cords.
I kinda like this one. Cords don't have to be longer but maybe chargers can have multiple extensions to plug into that allow several vehicles to be plugged in. For a destination (eg ski resort) this might work well as the charging can shift from vehicle to vehicle over the course of the day. A single charger can service multiple vehicles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
I know you are just spit balling ideas, but none of this is easy, practical or cheap. People will stick with gas vehicles if these are the solutions.
They will, but as things evolve this should hopefully change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
I assume once EV owners are willing to pay a practical price for a “fill up” more options will become available no?
Consumers / EV owners absolutely need to pay for their charges.
It's also likely that as battery technology improves that range becomes less of an issue. Look at something like the Lucid Air Dream. Yeah, it's a $170K USD car; but it can get 800km on a full charge at a similar kWh per 100km to other cars. And if you're doing a really long drive, it can charge enough to get you another 400km in a little over 15 minutes on a 350 kW charger. If that kind of performance can come down in cost in the next decade and find its way into normal passenger vehicles, then public charging infrastructure won't need to be all that robust.
It's also likely that as battery technology improves that range becomes less of an issue. Look at something like the Lucid Air Dream. Yeah, it's a $170K USD car; but it can get 800km on a full charge at a similar kWh per 100km to other cars. And if you're doing a really long drive, it can charge enough to get you another 400km in a little over 15 minutes on a 350 kW charger. If that kind of performance can come down in cost in the next decade and find its way into normal passenger vehicles, then public charging infrastructure won't need to be all that robust.
The thing with EV's is efficiency/drag really matters. Merc just ran theirs 1000km on a charge. So yes, these highly efficient sedans have big benefits. I wonder if because of that, EV's will usher in a new age of smaller lower vehicles? That'd be nice. But it also means a ski box or bike rack are going to be vicious on range.
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The thing with EV's is efficiency/drag really matters. Merc just ran theirs 1000km on a charge. So yes, these highly efficient sedans have big benefits. I wonder if because of that, EV's will usher in a new age of smaller lower vehicles? That'd be nice. But it also means a ski box or bike rack are going to be vicious on range.
Obviously efficiency and drag gains are useful but if customers maintain a high demand for CUV/SUV styled vehicles it will be tough to gain much in terms of design.
Also that 1000km Mercedes is impressive but it seems like a major benefit to that range comes from light weight materials which are derived from F1. It will be a long time before us regular road warriors are going to see those exotic and expensive materials in our vehicles.
Along with extra charges for quicker charging and a replacement for fuel taxes i imagine is what it will settle out at.
No extra charges. I think it needs to be only time your vehicle is plugged into the charger. Fast charging is what gets the queue moving faster. If some guy decides he can wait for an hour because it’s cheaper, that isn’t helpful.
Obviously efficiency and drag gains are useful but if customers maintain a high demand for CUV/SUV styled vehicles it will be tough to gain much in terms of design.
Also that 1000km Mercedes is impressive but it seems like a major benefit to that range comes from light weight materials which are derived from F1. It will be a long time before us regular road warriors are going to see those exotic and expensive materials in our vehicles.
The point is that those will have worse range, so customer demand may shift, if range is valued. With less drag, you can get away with smaller batteries, less weight, and lower costs, so engineering requirements may shift what people want.
The Merc had things like an active diffuser, so ya, their is a lot of tech that normal cars won't ever have. The point I was making there is that it is one of the lowest drag cars every made, which contributes to it's ability to go a long way. Reducing drag is going to be important for range with EVs.
What's a 'practical' price though? Price per kWh plus an infrastructure surcharge?
I think it's very plausible that charging is used as loss-leader/value-add opportunity for certain retail/entertainment environments.
In the near-term, EV=affluence. Shopping malls, grocery, zoos/theme parks, golf courses, etc fight hard to get affluent folks through their doors and to spend more time.
A similar example would be grocery-delivery/pickup - AFAIK these programs don't actually pay for themselves through direct fees, but getting that order is worth it for them. Or free valet parking at the Core mall (not sure if that's still a thing?).
Which isn't to say charging at these locations would be free, but it could easily be a nominal fee that doesn't have to cover all of the energy/infrastructure/staffing, but just contribute to a broader business case.
I keep coming back to valet service - I think there's a reasonable chance we see more of it since it allows more optimal use of chargers without having to locate them 'conveniently'. Little things like windshield/headlight cleaning may also fill a new service gap (since EV owners won't be stopping as often at service stations).
If EV=affluence then these people already have garages and charging at home. They aren't going to bother to charge at a shopping mall, golf course or grocery run. Charging for them will be a non-issue in their home city. It's really destinations that will bear the brunt of the pressure, and unfortunately they are also the busiest "surgiest" and most expensive areas to service.
I just think of a condo I stayed at in Canmore recently. Once we got there, we didn't need to drive much, but you'd want your vehicle recharged there. Servicing the hundred or so spots in the parking garage will be really expensive. If a large number of Calgary owners arrive Friday night, and want to plug in and charge to go skiing the next day, that's a big expensive problem to solve. So without in building charging, do you go line up at a charger the night you arrive, or the next morning on the way to the hill? No one wants to deal with that, so people will take their gas vehicle. These are the challenges that are going to annoy people, and I don't think they are as easy as hing a bunch of valets. I mean, sure, money can solve everything, but most normal people are not going to pay for a valet, they will take their gasser.
