That's it I'm going to burn the sacred text, the Jedi need to end
Yoda destroys it with lightning
You destroyed the sacred texts!!!! Yaaaaar
The second worst
At the Start of TLJ, takes the lightsabre, throws it over his shoulder over a cliff
In TOS
Rey throws the lightsabre into the fire
Luke catches it "A lightsabre deserves more respect"
It was just so weird, its almost like the writers insta forgot their own writing pages later.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
That's it I'm going to burn the sacred text, the Jedi need to end
Yoda destroys it with lightning
You destroyed the sacred texts!!!! Yaaaaar
The second worst
At the Start of TLJ, takes the lightsabre, throws it over his shoulder over a cliff
In TOS
Rey throws the lightsabre into the fire
Luke catches it "A lightsabre deserves more respect"
It was just so weird, its almost like the writers insta forgot their own writing pages later.
Yup.
It's strange that there are people that applaud TLJ's originality while ignoring the inconsistencies it creates even within its own trilogy just for the sake of being bold. I think some people claim to like it just to go against the grain.
I think that the biggest failing of the sequel trilogies is that there was no consistent story from the start. There was no one over seeing or protecting the story. When Rian submitted his script for TLJ someone should have slapped him with the script, and told him to rewrite it to hit story points that lead into the third story. Don't kill the main villain like a Red Shirt. Go back and watch the film so you don't make Poe a completely different person, and make Fin a aimless woo guy. Get rid of that stupid mirror in the cage scene and try again. And for god sakes, don't have a Luke Skywalker drinking blue milk for a joke.
Oh, and don't take a somewhat decent pocket villain like Hux in the first movie and make him a prat falling moron in the second movie, make him somewhat of a threat.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
It's strange that there are people that applaud TLJ's originality while ignoring the inconsistencies it creates even within its own trilogy just for the sake of being bold. I think some people claim to like it just to go against the grain.
The inconsistencies were choices made in the 3rd movie, completely independent from TLJ (except for JJ spending far too much time listening to whinny fan boys). The TLJ & TFA were compatible stories with a good 3rd part, they just never got it. I also don't think TLJ was particularly original, it's just that it basically played out the narrative of ESB & RoTJ in one act to leave space for a different ending, which was smart, if they had given us another trilogy with the same story, same ending... it would have been very weak narratively.
The inconsistencies were choices made in the 3rd movie, completely independent from TLJ (except for JJ spending far too much time listening to whinny fan boys). The TLJ & TFA were compatible stories with a good 3rd part, they just never got it. I also don't think TLJ was particularly original, it's just that it basically played out the narrative of ESB & RoTJ in one act to leave space for a different ending, which was smart, if they had given us another trilogy with the same story, same ending... it would have been very weak narratively.
It left almost no conclusion left to tell. So much was wrapped up in was was supposed to be a middle act that there was very little of intrigue left.
Snoke was done, Rey given a supposed identity, Luke's story ended..
Some call that genius, some call that not spacing out the story adequately to keep the audience invested in the next chapter. Never seen a trilogy that was planned that left so little meat on the bone for the third act.
Were the apologetic leaps in ROS lame? Yes, some were (and sadly necessary because there was not much to anticipate otherwise). But were many things about TLJ itself done poorly to begin with? Definitely.
Maybe PTSD Luke is bold, but it didn't have people weeping and cheering in their seats like Mandalorian Luke did. Clearly Mandalorian did something right and more emotionally compelling, and also respectful to the character and lore. You can't abandon the character you developed over a saga without showing in a convincing way how you got there. I wasn't convinced by a couple flashbacks. Luke who fought to the bitter end to redeem Darth effin Vader wouldn't strike down his sister's son in his sleep based on a bad feeling. And even when he came around to helping the others, his dialogue wasn't Luke dialogue. Came across like someone else entirely. I've said this many times but the new trilogy was more of a gritty, flashy Disney story wrapped in SW visuals, but was devoid of the heart and soul of SW.
A lot of the spirit died with Episode 7 even though it was an enjoyable movie, as evidenced by the drop in the box office numbers. There was something missing, and these directors try as they may just didn't understand Star Wars at its core I don't think. The people running the show now have a much better grasp and it is evident by the reception it is receiving.
I was sorta struggling with where the show fit in the SW timeline before, and after Ch 16 everything I'd pieced together goes in the garbage.
Could have sworn they were talking about the first order in season one (and maybe they were, but I was working on the assumption that Moff Gideon had sprung up after the fall of the New Order. But then Thrawn was mentioned, then Skywalker..
15 year old me would be so disappointed in today-me
It claims he attained the rank of master around 100. Means he was knighted before that.
I'm guessing they don't develop in any comparable fashion to humans. What we know is:
50 years old - non-verbal toddler-like
100 years old - Jedi Master
870 years old - still can't really talk right and uses poor grammar, super old, need cane and hoverboard to get around, but can also do flips and stuff with a lightsaber if they want too
900 years old - dead
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I was sorta struggling with where the show fit in the SW timeline before, and after Ch 16 everything I'd pieced together goes in the garbage.
Could have sworn they were talking about the first order in season one (and maybe they were, but I was working on the assumption that Moff Gideon had sprung up after the fall of the New Order. But then Thrawn was mentioned, then Skywalker..
15 year old me would be so disappointed in today-me
The time line is pretty tricky.
Think of it this way
5 years after the battle of Yavin
We saw operation Cinder, the final defeat of the Empire at the Battle of Jakku, the signing of the Galactic Concordance, which was the dissolving of the Empire, leaving a Imperial Remnants but not an empire. The disarming of the New Republic. Meanwhile Hux's father, Grand Admiral Sloane and other Imperial die hards flee to the unknown regions to form the New Order
9 years after the battle of Yavin
The events of the Mandalorian series happen.
21 BBY the first signs of the First Order existing come when Princess Leia discovers that they're funding their growth through the criminal underworld
28 to 34 BBY Ben Skywalker turns to the Dark Side and destroys the Jedi Academy, Luke goes into exile, the First Order starts conquoring the galaxy.
I have two theories.
Moff Gideon is with the Imperial Remnant. He wants the Child's DNA to create a new Emperor to rally the Remnant into relevance
Or Moff Gideon is an advanced scout for the First Order into New Republic Space, however his main role is to create a clone body for Palpatine to jump into, this would make more sense as it might take a long time to grow a clone body, and for Palpatine to recover from his coming back to live.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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The inconsistencies were choices made in the 3rd movie, completely independent from TLJ (except for JJ spending far too much time listening to whinny fan boys). The TLJ & TFA were compatible stories with a good 3rd part, they just never got it. I also don't think TLJ was particularly original, it's just that it basically played out the narrative of ESB & RoTJ in one act to leave space for a different ending, which was smart, if they had given us another trilogy with the same story, same ending... it would have been very weak narratively.
The inconsistencies were because there was a three movie arc that was planned and Rian Johnson, by all accounts, ignored it to do what ever the #### it was he did. Or you can believe Rian Johnson and there was no over-arcing story so he just did what ever the #### he wanted and we got the hot mess he filmed.
The fact that the ending of all of this lead to Rian Johnson fired makes me think he called an audible and Disney sat back and waited to see how it went. When it went poorly they fired him.
At the end of the day, you had to give something that played to what people wanted to see. It's a big part of why the Mandalorian is doing so well. Yeah, you want to do what you can to move to a new, younger, stable of characters, but to have Luke, Han, Leia, Chewbacco, Lando etc. all look like bitches was never going to work. Sure have Han and Luke die, but don't have them be shells of their former selves before doing it. Don't ram a new character down our throats and expect us to accept them. Even people with passing interest weren't paying money to see the new characters. Not at first anyways. Christ, Transformers tried that back in 86, so it wasn't like there wasn't previous examples in fandom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr. Mints
Favreau and Filloni should be the only ones to write Star Wars for a while. They just get t.
The inconsistencies were choices made in the 3rd movie, completely independent from TLJ (except for JJ spending far too much time listening to whinny fan boys). The TLJ & TFA were compatible stories with a good 3rd part, they just never got it. I also don't think TLJ was particularly original, it's just that it basically played out the narrative of ESB & RoTJ in one act to leave space for a different ending, which was smart, if they had given us another trilogy with the same story, same ending... it would have been very weak narratively.
TLJ went out of its way at just about every turn to be "subversive". They literally undid almost everything the TFA set up. I have never seen a sequel do that before, and I definitely would not describe it as "compatible".
Phasma and Snoke died. Hux became a fool.
Luke was a depressed gag, and there was no Jedi order to receive training from. In fact, TLJ implied that no more light or dark side existed. The child grasping for the broom is really the kind of scene you'd expect at the end of a trilogy and not in the middle. Also, untrained force users having that kind of power, is kind of outside of what the previous movies had shown.
Finn's relationship with the other main characters ceased to exist, and he was no in a new relationship with Rose. The elimination of Phasma ended much of his beef with the Empire.
Rey's parents being revealed as a nobody ended another big plot.
The rebellion was completely destroyed. So was the First Order for that matter. Akbar died.
The list of things that the TLJ destroyed is very long. As others have stated, there really wasn't much left to work with. Other than the First Order having some secret base and forces in some far off place, where else do you have to go with the story?
TLJ didn't just end the setups from TFA, but most of the Star Wars universe.
The only thing really left was the relationship between Rey and Kylo, and that didn't really advance at all during the film. It was still stuck at Kylo wanting to be in some kind of awkward union with Rey but unable to stop being a spaz. His only true connection to the dark side was his love of throwing tantrums. They tried to parallel the whole Anakin being chained to the Emperor through his own bad deeds, but it didn't really work because everyone seemed to forgive Kylo for killing Han Solo.
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The other thing, is that while people don't like the sequels, the story of the fall of Anakin to Vader made sense, he was caught in a war of both sides. The perceived hypocrisy of the Jedi Council, and the Jedi weren't at all what we imagined by the third movie, and the brilliant manipulations of Palpatine especially when it came to Anakin. He played off of his ego, his fear of loss, and his fear of being a slave to the Jedi Order.
In TLJ there was no fall with Ben, he was just evil at the start, and the whole story in the last Jedi, where Luke just decides for even a second that he has to die had literally no emotional impact. It would have been nice to have seen some indication of Snoke's machinations in stealing Kylo from his family and Luke. Why did the dark rise in him. Just having a buzz line, that he wanted to be his grandfather felt weak considering he would have heard stories of his Grandfathers monstrous acts of evil in killing kids, slaughtering an entire planet. Torturing Mom and Dad, all acts caused by the Dark Side.
There was little development of the why's of Ben, and because of that we were left with a sniveling anger spaz, it was a really quick fall from his cool entrance in the first movie.
TLJ was jarring and I agree with the posters above, the destruction of the big bad with no succession except Ben and his whole let everything die (which isn't bad if it was fleshed out to why he believed that needed to happen). To Fin really ending his development, to an even worse waste of the Phasma character, to Hux becoming a 2 dimensional butt of jokes. Rian really train wrecked thing, and I'm sure there was outright panic when they had to write the third movie.
It's the reason why they bought back Palpatine, (mistake because he was awful and that whole kill me thing is stupid when you put it in context with his story in the Opera House). Or the reason why they had a shot with 10,000 old school star destroyers. It was pure fan service, and in the end made the summary episode of the trilogy seem more like a badly written comic.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
TLJ was the worst Star Wars that ever did Star Wars. And yes I am aware of the holiday special.
My dream and hope is they somehow access an alternate timeline story where we can shove the sequels and give the fans what they really want instead.
I know it is a pipe dream, but I also know the Mouse likes money and the success of the story telling Mandalorian has given us, the erection the internet got over seeing Jedi Luke and our willingness as fans to accept SOME reaches for the greater good of the story shows that we would be willing to look the other way while the current sequels were taken behind the shed and old yellard out of existance.
Dare to dream..
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
I very much doubt that they would de-canon the ST. I guess they could do what they did with the prequels with adding plot fixes and lore via a show like The Clone Wars. They tried it with Resistance which was really Disney's first true shot at a animated series of their own, but Resistance was just as bad as the Sequels.
It'll be interesting to see if the Ranger series is used to bridge to the introduction of the First Order.
Probably the best thing to do is not to make anything around the Sequel Time line, announce that there is not more stories to tell about Rey, Finn and Poe and say that the Galaxy lived in peace for a couple of hundred years.
What I've really noticed though that really kind of hurts me, is that when Disney closed the book on the Legends EU and de-canonized it, they lost a lot of incredibly good writers that understood how to write good star wars material. Drew Karpyshyn, James Lucerno, Michael Stackpole, Troy Denning, Mathew Stover, Karen Traviss and Aaron Allston formed this really strong core of Star Wars writers that wrote really strong books with really interesting characters.
When the new EU came out, the books just seemed to be fairly poorly written, and inconsistent. You'll notice that I left Zahn out of the list above, but he continued to write in the New EU with the Thrawn series, but I didn't think those books were all that good.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I know we've derailed this thread again. I know many of you will not agree with me. I know the Captain knows way more about the extended texts than I ever will, but I don't particularly care about the extended text, we are talking about the main movie universe. I'm probably going to leave it at this for now until the thread is derailed again.
I still just don't get your guys takes on TLJ. Seemingly you all just wanted a remake of ESB. To say it was a worse movie than TPM / AoTC / SoTS / RoSw / Solo just tells me you aren't giving the movie an honest interpretation, half of all Star Wars movies are hot messes without a clear purposes, and TFA would be seen as a hacky remake had it not been for the 40 year gap and the atrocities that were the prequels.
You had a Jedi Master that ran away when the going got tuff, what was his character going to be? a wise old sage waiting for the right moment to leap back into action? Why did he sit around and let billions be killed? clearly he had tuned out, there was a pretty narrow range of interpretations you could give to Lukes actions as revealed in TFA, and TLJ leaned into it. Think what you will, but it certainly wasn't out of character for Luke.
Why is it so vital to everyone that Rey is somebody? Why do we need to take the villains word in TFA a truth, and why don't we believe it in TLJ? The everyman heroic figure is a very important archetype within epic story telling. It's generally a beat that the franchise had missed out on because of Lucas' obsession with over explaining everything. I thought it was quite refreshing to hear that we didn't need an explanation for who Rey was, it seemed like a positive step away from the biggest weaknesses of Lucas.
Why can't we expect enough from our story tellers to get at least a new ending to a new trilogy? Like I've said many times, when facing a sequel with the exact same start as the prior story, your second plot movement rushes you to the end of the original story for a very good reason this. If you are bothering to make a sequel you had better have something new to say. If the first part and second part directly reflect the originals, it doesn't give you a lot of space to maneuver for an original ending.
Why do we care who if the main villain of the series is Snoke or Kylo? Is it not better that we push aside flat archetypal big bad, and actually fight off the villain who has all the time and motivation invested into him.
TFA villains = whiny baby Kylo / hacky remake emperor
TLJ villains = kill his was to the top and grab power by any means kylo.
TRoSw villains = deus ex machina and kylo struggling to fight off the urge to do the right thing.
TLJ is the only movie that bothered to try and give us a fully formed villain and you use that as a knock against the movie.
Aside from the obvious mistake of having two different writer/directors, with two different visions to tell one story, TLJs overall plot was smart story telling. Outside of this, none of the criticisms you guys make of the movie are particularly valid, and it's clear to me Rian had a vision for an original story and Abrams wanted to retell the story of Star Wars, I for one hope if they are currently developing 18 new Star War properties the vast majority of them take the time to tell a new story, set within the expansive world Star Wars gave us.
Finally, death of the author. Once truths are out there in the universe you are dealing with, weather or not you like them you need to integrate them into new stories. You can't just choose to have grand armies appear out of nowhere, resurrect the villain you really wanted to have, or pretend actions didn't happen because you don't like them. JJs crimes against story telling in TRoSw are far worse than anything you've brought forward and it's not Rains fault JJ choose not to engage with the text he was given to work with. You had a villain that proved he would stop at nothing to win, and a Hero that gained power & wisdom but had not yet succeeded in standing up to the villain, both running out of proxies to fight their fights for them. It's not a hard story to tell, I can't really imagine people saying there was nowhere for the story to go.
Jesus H. Christ, I very briefly mentioned TLJ on the previous page, and now we're back here arguing about the f'n sequels...AGAIN. My apologies to everyone here.
Just to get the thread back on topic, here's the Mandalorian theme with lyrics. Enjoy!
I still just don't get your guys takes on TLJ. Seemingly you all just wanted a remake of ESB. To say it was a worse movie than TPM / AoTC / SoTS / RoSw / Solo just tells me you aren't giving the movie an honest interpretation, half of all Star Wars movies are hot messes without a clear purposes, and TFA would be seen as a hacky remake had it not been for the 40 year gap and the atrocities that were the prequels.
In a vacuum, TLJ is fine. It's what it becomes when you make it as the bridge movie of a trilogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #-3
You had a Jedi Master that ran away when the going got tuff, what was his character going to be? a wise old sage waiting for the right moment to leap back into action? Why did he sit around and let billions be killed? clearly he had tuned out, there was a pretty narrow range of interpretations you could give to Lukes actions as revealed in TFA, and TLJ leaned into it. Think what you will, but it certainly wasn't out of character for Luke.
There was lots you can do. I suggest reading the treatment that leaked for TLJ that was written by JJ and his writing partner. It makes a lot more sense for Luke's character than Rian's "subversion of expectation." Make no mistake, Luke was only a mopey #### because Rian decided he should be a mopey #### because no one expected Luke to be a mopey ####.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #-3
Why is it so vital to everyone that Rey is somebody? Why do we need to take the villains word in TFA a truth, and why don't we believe it in TLJ? The everyman heroic figure is a very important archetype within epic story telling. It's generally a beat that the franchise had missed out on because of Lucas' obsession with over explaining everything. I thought it was quite refreshing to hear that we didn't need an explanation for who Rey was, it seemed like a positive step away from the biggest weaknesses of Lucas.
It's originally not vital that Rey is "somebody." It becomes vital when you spend the first movie and a bit building up that she is somebody. It's almost a case of Chekhov's gun. But also, she should be somebody as a means to even try and justify just how strong she is within the universe. Again, the only reason she ended up being nobody is because Rian Johnson's "subversion of expectation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by #-3
Why can't we expect enough from our story tellers to get at least a new ending to a new trilogy? Like I've said many times, when facing a sequel with the exact same start as the prior story, your second plot movement rushes you to the end of the original story for a very good reason this. If you are bothering to make a sequel you had better have something new to say. If the first part and second part directly reflect the originals, it doesn't give you a lot of space to maneuver for an original ending.
You're right, that TFA was a copy of ANH was ####. But at that point, the die is cast and you can't really pull it back... unless you just take the first movie, ignore everything and then look at the third movie coming after yours and say it doesn't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #-3
Why do we care who if the main villain of the series is Snoke or Kylo? Is it not better that we push aside flat archetypal big bad, and actually fight off the villain who has all the time and motivation invested into him.
TFA villains = whiny baby Kylo / hacky remake emperor
TLJ villains = kill his was to the top and grab power by any means kylo.
TRoSw villains = deus ex machina and kylo struggling to fight off the urge to do the right thing.
TLJ is the only movie that bothered to try and give us a fully formed villain and you use that as a knock against the movie.
TLJ had a main villain, and then they threw it in the trash, flipped the bird to the third movie and said "Figure this one out, ####bois." Though trying to make the case that Kylo was a fully formed villain his hilarious. His back story, filled out in TLJ is just absolute garbage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #-3
Aside from the obvious mistake of having two different writer/directors, with two different visions to tell one story, TLJs overall plot was smart story telling. Outside of this, none of the criticisms you guys make of the movie are particularly valid, and it's clear to me Rian had a vision for an original story and Abrams wanted to retell the story of Star Wars, I for one hope if they are currently developing 18 new Star War properties the vast majority of them take the time to tell a new story, set within the expansive world Star Wars gave us.
Rian did have a story to tell. Except Rian didn't have a Star Wars story to tell. He just shoved into a Star Wars universe and it failed spectacularly. The new ones are going to tell new stories with their foot firmly rooted in Star Wars lore because that's what a majority of people want to see. Do we want Skywalkers in every show? No. But do I think people do want to see a story they recognize? Yep. TLJ didn't look like star wars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #-3
Finally, death of the author. Once truths are out there in the universe you are dealing with, weather or not you like them you need to integrate them into new stories. You can't just choose to have grand armies appear out of nowhere, resurrect the villain you really wanted to have, or pretend actions didn't happen because you don't like them. JJs crimes against story telling in TRoSw are far worse than anything you've brought forward and it's not Rains fault JJ choose not to engage with the text he was given to work with. You had a villain that proved he would stop at nothing to win, and a Hero that gained power & wisdom but had not yet succeeded in standing up to the villain, both running out of proxies to fight their fights for them. It's not a hard story to tell, I can't really imagine people saying there was nowhere for the story to go.
You realize JJ had to pull a new villain out of his ass to finish the trilogy because Rian killed the one that had been set up, right? You realize it was Rian not working with the text he was given to work with that started the whole thing turning into a #### show right? Like, Rian was given seven previous movies, an entire legended back log, three shows that were canon to work with and draw from as far as characterization and ideas said "Nah #### it, I'mma do this instead."
You had a villain that now made no sense, a main character that also made no sense. And then handed it off to a new director and said "Hey fix this!"
There's a reason Rian Johnson got fired from the trilogy he was supposed to do. He's a great director. He's an awful Star Wars director.
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