"Me Too"

[Makarov]

It might be an even more powerful campaign if every man who was ever guilty of sexually harassing or even sexually assaulting a woman posted something like #ididit. I'm ashamed to admit that I've done it in the past.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by driveway

So, this trend is sweeping social media, I'm sure you've seen it, if you haven't please go google it.

My mother just posted it.

Many of the members of this forum are men, so this is what I want to ask us:
What are we doing to prevent sexual harrassment and assault?

What are YOU doing? Are you going to call our your friend the next time they hit on a waitress? What about your buddy at work who makes those kinda funny but-right-on-the-edge jokes? What are you going to change in your own life?

The first thing I can think of that I'm going to change: my friend and I like to go down to where the nightclubs are in Taipei, get some drinks from 7-11 and hang out while we watch the girls go in and out of the clubs. I'm not doing that anymore.

So what else are we going to do?

I definitely respect the message this hashtag is supporting, but I think it's also important to point out that a distinction needs to be made between making a move on someone with the right intentions and sexually harassing someone. There's a line you don't cross there... but I don't think its inappropriate to 'hit' on a woman, as long as you do it with respect and class and within that person's comfort zone.

If I buy a girl a drink or start talking to them, that isn't sexual harassment. It's crossing the line by saying inappropriate things and making them uncomfortable that could be construed as such. It is very important to know the difference.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Muta

I definitely respect the message this hashtag is supporting, but I think it's also important to point out that a distinction needs to be made between making a move on someone with the right intentions and sexually harassing someone. There's a line you don't cross there... but I don't think its inappropriate to 'hit' on a woman, as long as you do it with respect and class and within that person's comfort zone.

If I buy a girl a drink or start talking to them, that isn't sexual harassment. It's crossing the line by saying inappropriate things and making them uncomfortable that could be construed as such. It is very important to know the difference.

I don't think you get to make that decision. I think it's up to her whether it is or isn't. I think that's one of the things this campaign is trying to point out.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by driveway

I don't think you get to make that decision. I think it's up to her whether it is or isn't. I think that's one of the things this campaign is trying to point out.

Of course it's up to her. But if you don't try, how are you supposed to know? However, you can do it with respect, tact and class as I've indicated. If she doesn't bite, that is completely her right and you leave them be.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by driveway

I don't think you get to make that decision. I think it's up to her whether it is or isn't. I think that's one of the things this campaign is trying to point out.

So just saying hi to a girl is sexual harassment if she decides it is?

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

So just saying hi to a girl is sexual harassment if she decides it is?

I can't imagine that to be the case. If that is the future, men and women will never get together and birth rates will plummet because most women (at least the women I know personally) still prefer to have men make the first move. I think men just needs to accept rejection better -- if a man says hi or buys a drink for a woman and the woman is not interested, just move on instead of getting angry or ######y about it.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

You know, internet threads about social issues and politics have always been super depressing. But it's amazing how they've managed to completely change ideologies while remaining every bit as depressing.

Good grief.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If you use the word to describe both sexes it shouldn't be an issue.

Most people I know don't, myself included.

Isn’t the point (of that post specifically) that it’s still an issue though? Regardless of what my intentions or personal norms are we need to be checking ourselves a bit more, no?

It’s tough to realize that you might be doing something wrong in a lot of these scenarios. The times I’ve been complimented on my looks it’s flattering. Even in work spaces I’ve had women (friends) say things that would definitely be considered harassment by most of these standards. When you know someone well it can come with a different standard of course, so I guess my question would be does that line still exist when the woman breaks it? Like I get called honey or darling all the time by women of pretty much any demographic. Does them doing that open me up to using pet names as well or should I just avoid that in general? If a woman compliments my attire and I want to return should I still avoid complimenting her hair or something? Obviously my perspective is that it is pleasant to compliment someone that way (tastefully of course). That said, there are a lot of men that may find that uncomfortable as well.

I’m just curious what these boundaries are because they seem very fluid and confusing. Especially in a single/dating world where you’re never really sure where you stand with someone until you assert yourself. Obviously reading the signs to stop is key, but some of these things are pretty subtle are can be things that you don’t really get a good feeling on until after you’ve had some experience with personal relationships. I guess that’s where the whole talking with kids and stuff comes in.

[afc wimbledon]

I've done my fair share of crappy things in my life but at 55 I'm probably more proud of the times when my Grandfathers fairly beating based education system about girls came into play, he just drilled it into me you don't sleep with girls who are drunk, you take care of them, I don't why, he was of the generation that pretty much looked on girls that drank as the opposite, but he was utterly uncompromising.
Until I had a daughter of my own it was just what I was taught, my granddad had one child, my mum, as I had one daughter, I suspect that was why.
Now I teach it to my foster kids, the bonus for them is (and I tell them) you will get way more dates if you get a reputation as a stand up guy when girls are vunerable, that fact gets passed around by the girls just as much as if your a ######

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by chedder

10. Avoid telling little girls they're pretty and cute or commenting on their hairstyle or clothing. I know, little girls often wear fun stuff and it's easy to comment on. But it tells her, and the little boys nearby, that girls should be valued first and foremost for their looks.

This is one area where I fall down. Probably out of habit with my own daughters. It's awfully easy to say, " You look pretty in that outfit/hairstyle honey/sweetheart". They are 10 and 13. Not sure I see what's wrong as I also commend them for academic and athletic pursuits and just for generally being great little people most of the time. I should ask them what they think.

It's like a reflex. I have to stop myself from commenting on/complimenting little girl's appearances. It's just like the "go-to" thing to say. Ugh.

I guess the thing that stands out to me is we commend our daughters for their numerous other achievements TOO. But our sons we just don't reflexively say, really ever, "oh that looks handsome, honey", or even "that looks very stylish". Like I tell my son when he gets a haircut that it looks nice, but that's about the only time his looks are ever discussed. Also I struggled there to think up another positive compliment on a young boys looks other than "handsome", but for girls we have about a billion adjectives to comment on their appearance.

Anyways. Me too, y'all.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Makarov

It might be an even more powerful campaign if every man who was ever guilty of sexually harassing or even sexually assaulting a woman posted something like #ididit. I'm ashamed to admit that I've done it in the past.

Thank you for this. I read something similar earlier today. I'm sure the knives will come out for me after I post this, but essentially the gist of the argument was, basically every woman you know is a "me too". Look at your Facebook, twitter, Instagram, etc. And realize that for every "me too" there are also plenty of women who don't even feel comfortable disclosing a "me too" on social media about what happened to them.

So basically the message was, we all know someone who has been sexually harassed or assaulted. At what point can we change the conversation to say "we all know someone who has sexually harassed and assaulted women."

Because we all do. If so many of the women in your life have been harassed or assaulted, the logic just has to follow that in your circle of men friends, some of these guys are doing the harassing and the assaulting. But the focus of the conversation is still on the victims and not the perpetrators.

[GirlySports]

You guys mention bars, restaurants and waitresses here that not a huge issue. You can gawk. It pales in comparison to the crap executives do to females in the workplace. It's abuse of power and psychological.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

You guys mention bars, restaurants and waitresses here that not a huge issue. You can gawk. It pales in comparison to the crap executives do to females in the workplace. It's abuse of power and psychological.

Have you ever read anything about the male gaze, Girlysports? Women's bodies are not on display for the purpose of men to gawk and ogle. There is not an implied right for men to "Gawk" at women's bodies.

Anyways I do agree that a power imbalance makes things much worse. But in a restaurant situation there still is a power imbalance. The "talent" is working for tips and put up with a LOT of lewd and crude comments, and I'm sure the occasional grab and grope, to earn their tips and keep customers happy. It's demoralizing. And harassment.

[calf]

I look back at how I acted in my teens and early 20s and am quite ashamed. I learned better as I gained life experience, dated, and got married. I am sure that most of my bad attitudes I picked up from how males I looked up to treated women. And it's not like I witnessed a lot of active sexual harassment...it was i guess I will call more passive things that add up. Like having a female friend at school and being asked if she's your girlfriend. Being a girl at something being used as an insult. Things that reduce women to being an object, or a lesser person. Now that I have a son, starting at an early age, I am making sure that I set a good example for him, first and foremost, so he models appropriate attitudes and behaviors. And calling out casual sexism when I see it. I might not always catch it but I will correct it when I can. That might make me "politically correct police", but I always figured that phrase was a deflection for people who wanted to be jerks to others.

[Minnie]

Huh. Glad to know the groping, pinching, lewd/rude comments and untoward and pointed gawking I dealt with on the daily when I waited tables wasn't an issue. Phew. I was getting worried for a minute there.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Huh. Glad to know the groping, pinching, lewd/rude comments and untoward and pointed gawking I dealt with on the daily when I waited tables wasn't an issue. Phew. I was getting worried for a minute there.

But it could have been worse, Minnie!!! It might have been an executive!

/sarcasm, in case that wasn't 110% crystal clear.

Being sexually harassed and assaulted shouldn't be something that just "comes with the job" of being a restaurant server. The same as being sexually harassed and assaulted by Harvey Weinstein shouldn't just be something that "comes with the biz" when you're trying to make it in Hollywood.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Isn’t the point (of that post specifically) that it’s still an issue though? Regardless of what my intentions or personal norms are we need to be checking ourselves a bit more, no?

It’s tough to realize that you might be doing something wrong in a lot of these scenarios. The times I’ve been complimented on my looks it’s flattering. Even in work spaces I’ve had women (friends) say things that would definitely be considered harassment by most of these standards. When you know someone well it can come with a different standard of course, so I guess my question would be does that line still exist when the woman breaks it? Like I get called honey or darling all the time by women of pretty much any demographic. Does them doing that open me up to using pet names as well or should I just avoid that in general? If a woman compliments my attire and I want to return should I still avoid complimenting her hair or something? Obviously my perspective is that it is pleasant to compliment someone that way (tastefully of course). That said, there are a lot of men that may find that uncomfortable as well.

I’m just curious what these boundaries are because they seem very fluid and confusing. Especially in a single/dating world where you’re never really sure where you stand with someone until you assert yourself. Obviously reading the signs to stop is key, but some of these things are pretty subtle are can be things that you don’t really get a good feeling on until after you’ve had some experience with personal relationships. I guess that’s where the whole talking with kids and stuff comes in.

Personally, I would only use pet names like 'darling', 'honey', or 'sweetheart' with my partner. If a female coworker wants to call me 'babe' or 'darling' or anything, I'd find that unusual bordering on uncomfortable unless she did that to literally everyone. I would submit that, should you be concerned about inadvertently offending a female coworker, you simply call her by her name. If you outrank her, Ms Last Name. Be professional.

In situations where you are fortunate enough to have a woman remark upon your haircut or clothes, you should probably say 'thank you' and leave it at that. I've occasionally noticed my when women in the office have done something to their hair. Often times, several days after the fact - if I do say anything, it's limited to 'did you get your hair done? It looks nice'. I'm only addressing it because it's an obvious change (Somewhat) and I feel it would be rude to never say anything.

Asking yourself 'is this creepy?' is never a bad thing. Asking how you'd feel if someone said X to your daughter. Look them in the eye when you talk to them. Be a human being. And if the hot chick at work is wearing a dynamite top with homewrecker of a skirt, maybe just say a small prayer thanking God for brightening your day, and keep it to yourself. Pretend you've seen a woman before.


I have slept with nearly 10 women in my life. In every single occasion, the boundaries of what was acceptable and what was not were very apparent to all involved. So much so that I have come to believe this about consent: you can tell a woman wants to have sex with you because she's having sex with you. And there are two types of people: the people who understand what I'm saying, and rapists.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Peanut

But it could have been worse, Minnie!!!

/sarcasm, in case that wasn't 110% crystal clear.

You wouldn’t know sarcasm if it sexually harassed you.

On a serious note though it’s surprising how young we start shaping girls images. My wife was buying some animal slippers the other day for our niece and she had our son with her. The teller said they wouldn’t fit our son and my wife said they are for our niece, the lady replied “but these are for boys”. It’s some animal why does it matter? Is it not pink enough?

[Peanut]

There's research (or, videos explaining research) that show toddlers really young start to be aware of genderized differences. I should go back and find the video but I want to say it might have been as young as 18-24 months? The girls start recognizing the pink, "feminine" things are for them, and the boys recognize mostly that pink isn't for them. Maybe they're more prone to blues and greens and stuff.

Anyways. I've learned a lot over the years but my first daughter was buried in an avalanche of pink. I try to be more gender neutral now.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Have you ever read anything about the male gaze, Girlysports? Women's bodies are not on display for the purpose of men to gawk and ogle. There is not an implied right for men to "Gawk" at women's bodies.

Anyways I do agree that a power imbalance makes things much worse. But in a restaurant situation there still is a power imbalance. The "talent" is working for tips and put up with a LOT of lewd and crude comments, and I'm sure the occasional grab and grope, to earn their tips and keep customers happy. It's demoralizing. And harassment.

The whole tip culture makes things worse. When you go to a Chinese restaurant for example do you ever notice the waitress? And thus tip little.