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Old 09-01-2017, 03:14 PM   #21
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I also don't see why at the time the police needed a sample of the blood at all.
the guy was an innocent victim. the bad guy perhaps, but not the truck driver.

would love to know about the “exigent circumstances and implied consent law” Payne quoted to the nurse.

no way the nurse should have been arrested like that because the cop didn't get his way.
wonder if after they arrested her the cops took the blood sample anyway.
The Calgary Herald website has a good Washington Post article on this - apparently the "implied consent" law was changed in Utah a decade ago.

Also, apparently the nurse is a 2 time former winter Olympian.
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Old 09-01-2017, 03:32 PM   #22
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Fortunately, for the nurse, she's white. Otherwise, it is unlikely she'd survive the arrest.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:11 PM   #23
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its a third world country at this point, little health care or welfare, a police force that answers to no one and uses military equipment on the streets, a massive imbalance between rich and poor and a complete moron in charge of it all
The President instructed police officers across the nation to be more forceful. Even told them not to use their free hand when putting suspects in cars to protect their heads. The president. Directly instructing cops how to handle suspects.

Third world indeed.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:23 PM   #24
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The President instructed police officers across the nation to be more forceful. Even told them not to use their free hand when putting suspects in cars to protect their heads. The president. Directly instructing cops how to handle suspects.

Third world indeed.
You need your free hand to grab 'em by the....well, you know.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by D as in David View Post
Fortunately, for the nurse, she's white. Otherwise, it is unlikely she'd survive the arrest.
I think that the treatment of nonwhites is a canary in the coal mine...unless the police forces in the US turn their attitude around, its going to get worse for everyone.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:38 PM   #26
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The scary part of that video is the senior officer trying to talk the nurse down, and lying to her face about the law and what rights they (police) have. The hospital has every right to refuse access to a patient and their information.

http://hipaa.bsd.uchicago.edu/law_enforce.html

The Supreme Court has ruled that a blood draw requires patient consent or production of a search warrant.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...-warrants.html

The cops didn't want to hear that, and freaked the hell out. My biggest question here is not about the behavior of the Detective, as he cooked his own goose with his own body camera, my concern is the behavior of the other offices there. They should have immediately stepped in and helped calm the Detective down, as he was 1000% in the wrong. He did nothing by the book, and he allowed his emotions to get the best of him. His LEO brothers should have diffused the situation before it got way out of control. All they have done is make themselves complicit in the action and are going to be staring an IA in the face as well.

The outcome of this is this nurse getting a big payday and at least one cop losing his job and his pension. Based on the look of that Detective, that's going to hurt the worst. I hate to see a guy make a simple mistake that costs him a lifetime of earning, but in this instance, it is definitely deserved.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:43 PM   #27
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Maybe Payne knew the patient, and wanted to protect him (acquire evidence he wasn't drunk, perhaps)?
An article I read said that it was to protect him - they wanted to do a drug screen and were hoping it would come back clean. Nothing about them knowing each other though.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:15 PM   #28
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An article I read said that it was to protect him - they wanted to do a drug screen and were hoping it would come back clean. Nothing about them knowing each other though.
What does he need protection from though? He was the victim in the accident. He is clearly driving in his lane, not wandering, and the suspect being chased just swerves and slams into him head on. What does he need protection from, besides crazy ass people fleeing police that decide to use innocent people to kill themselves?
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:17 PM   #29
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Lots missing from the story, but I have a few comments:

If the police had a warrant,signed by a judge, that compels a medical work to draw blood, and the medical worker refuses, that worker can be arrested.

Hospital policy does not supercede the criminal code.

In this situation, I have no idea why the police needed to draw blood or if they had a warrant.



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Old 09-01-2017, 07:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
Lots missing from the story, but I have a few comments:

If the police had a warrant,signed by a judge, that compels a medical work to draw blood, and the medical worker refuses, that worker can be arrested.

Hospital policy does not supercede the criminal code.

In this situation, I have no idea why the police needed to draw blood or if they had a warrant.



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They had no warrant. They had none of the 3 things required for the hospital to allow them in to do the blood draw. Utah also apparently no longer has implied consent laws.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:26 PM   #31
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I think it's implied there was no warrant. I wonder if she would have broken the law had she done the sample. So essentially he may have been forcing her to break the law. Or arresting her for not breaking the law.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:33 PM   #32
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I would imagine that she may have lost her job if she'd gone ahead because hospital admin were well aware of the situation at that point.

A trucker friend in the US said that it's standard to test the blood, regardless of fault in an accident, if you hold a CDL, or risk losing it but they still have to give consent or the police have to have a warrant or the person has to be under arrest. None of those criteria were met. Friend also says they wonder if that was the impetus behind the cop's behaviour, that they are aware of this so tried to push the issue and hope the staff would just capitulate. So that clears up why they were trying to get blood samples, even though the trucker wasn't at fault.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:48 PM   #33
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I would imagine that she may have lost her job if she'd gone ahead because hospital admin were well aware of the situation at that point.

A trucker friend in the US said that it's standard to test the blood, regardless of fault in an accident, if you hold a CDL, or risk losing it but they still have to give consent or the police have to have a warrant or the person has to be under arrest. None of those criteria were met. Friend also says they wonder if that was the impetus behind the cop's behaviour, that they are aware of this so tried to push the issue and hope the staff would just capitulate. So that clears up why they were trying to get blood samples, even though the trucker wasn't at fault.
So odd to push it to the point of arrest standing only behind the principle that staff would capitulate. He would have had to have known it would be an unlawful arrest.

There has to be more to the story.

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Old 09-01-2017, 07:55 PM   #34
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Why does there have to be more to this story?
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
Lots missing from the story, but I have a few comments:

If the police had a warrant,signed by a judge, that compels a medical work to draw blood, and the medical worker refuses, that worker can be arrested.

Hospital policy does not supercede the criminal code.

In this situation, I have no idea why the police needed to draw blood or if they had a warrant.



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No. There are all the pertinent facts in the video and story

Police requested a blood test
Nurse demonstrated policy agreed to by the police and hospital
No warrant,
No consent
No arrest
Supreme Court confirmed no right to compel blood test
Officer pouted
Officer made illegal arrest
Other officers watched it occur

Simply "letting her go" after an illegal arrest is insufficient.

To use your words, illegal police demands do not supersede an individuals rights
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:32 PM   #36
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No. There are all the pertinent facts in the video and story

Police requested a blood test
Nurse demonstrated policy agreed to by the police and hospital
No warrant,
No consent
No arrest
Supreme Court confirmed no right to compel blood test
Officer pouted
Officer made illegal arrest
Other officers watched it occur

Simply "letting her go" after an illegal arrest is insufficient.

To use your words, illegal police demands do not supersede an individuals rights
Ya man. I was saying that I didn't go through all the videos and stories.

I was only providing info that there are times a hospital worker can be compelled to follow police direction.

Out of interest, what would be sufficient after a 'pouting' officer makes an illegal arrest?



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Old 09-01-2017, 08:44 PM   #37
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When I was a young man my friend joined the Metropolitan Police, he was taught, and they certainly enforced a higher standard on cops then civilians, a speeding ticket would get you suspended, any criminal conviction under any circumstance would get you fired immediately.

As it stands in the US right now the police are being held to a much, much, lower standard than the civilians they are supposed to be policing, this should have resulted in a instant dismissal and probable criminal charges, it doesn't matter what the cop thought the law was, there was no need to arrest a nurse who's just doing her job, she thinks she needs a warrant, even if she's wrong you make a call and get it sorted out above their heads
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:47 PM   #38
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Good question

I think when someone is provided with tremendous privilege due to their position of employment there is a great obligation to use those privileges responsibly.

The officer didn't like the law. So he made up his own. That isn't how it works in western societies.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:26 PM   #39
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I was only providing info that there are times a hospital worker can be compelled to follow police direction.
And when are these times exactly?
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:35 PM   #40
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And when are these times exactly?
As mentioned, judicial authority... to be exact... Although there are others .

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