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Old 12-15-2017, 08:38 AM   #41
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Reading online reviews is fascinating.

I think there are some people out there who feel the need to crap all over the movie as an attempt to prove they are more star warsy than the next person - and losing the forest for the trees in the process.

It's a great movie. A Star Wars movie. It won't be held up alongside the original trilogy, but it kicks the crap out of the Jar jar trilogy. A good follow up to Force Awakens. Not as dark as Rogue One.
I think there's the opposite as well: the tend for a lot of people to gloss over a lot of the issues with it (and there are a lot) because Star Wars!

I really feel like this won't be looked at nearly as favorably by a lot of people as the hype dies down and people see it more than once.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:02 AM   #42
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Going back tonight but upon reflection I think what bothers me the most was the whole "Slowest car chase in the galaxy" premise. It's a mass plot hole just to set up a long and useless side casino trip (and to teach Poe a lesson?).

Sidebar, I was half expecting (wanting?) the movie just to end with the image of Luke standing off against the row of AT-M6's.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:03 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube View Post
I think there's the opposite as well: the tend for a lot of people to gloss over a lot of the issues with it (and there are a lot) because Star Wars!

I really feel like this won't be looked at nearly as favorably by a lot of people as the hype dies down and people see it more than once.
Depends.

A lot of this big complaints revolve around the handling of Snoke's death/history, & Rey's parentage not being revealed.

IMO those will actually be less impactful complaints on second viewing. The reason it's so jarring upon the first watch is because people hyped up these huge reveals in their head for 2 years and when nothing happened it was an immediate disappointment.

Some more takes from me personally

- Loved the handling of Luke and the reveal that he was the final push that turned Kylo to the darkside. The way they lighted up Luke when Kylo was talking about it really made it seem like Luke had turned dark.

-Unlike others I liked the plot for Rose/Finn. Fits with the them they are trying to build here (and in Rogue One). Anybody can be a hero, you don't need to be a force user, just "Hope" and believe in good.

-The Casino felt very Star Wars to me - interesting to see a "Rich" side of Star Wars though since usually it's about the poorer and worn down towns and cities.

-Leia: Didn't hate her force pulling herself back to the ship but think the whole thing was more impactful for Kylo's story if she dies there. He hesitates to pull the trigger and in the end it doesn't matter - would have been one more angle driving him to darkness.

-Rey: Liked her a lot in this movie and I feel like the story of her parentage is not over yet. Although if what Kylo said was true then I have no issue with it. In order to expand the universe Disney needs to plant the seed that in order to use the "force" you don't need to be a Skywalker or Kenobi, this movie really sets that up and for the better in the long run.

-Kylo: probably the biggest positive from movie to movie. Good character growth. Just enough teasing of him turning to the light, and then in the end he starts to show his full decline into anger and the darkness.

-Finn: Some good character development for him here as well. Evolved from just trying to survive to being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save the rebels.

-Snoke: Probably the biggest miss. No issue with him dying but a little more story on who he was and how he manipulated Kylo was needed. Maybe that comes to light in Episode 9 but they didn't expand on that set up enough.

Overall for me the biggest complaints was the ending dragged on, and that it didn't leave enough "unknowns" for Episode 9. Showing the reunion of everyone embracing on the Falcon was unneeded, and felt shoehorned in just so they can get the Chewy/Leia embrace they missed in TFA.

I think I may like it better on second watch. There was a lot going on there and I think it was easy to miss a lot of the small intricacies and details.

One thing that I already read online that I didn't notice at the time was that the Halogram Luke wasn't leaving footprints or kicking up red salt. They placed such an emphasis on that, that it surprised me that I missed it when he first walked out.

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Old 12-15-2017, 09:13 AM   #44
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Going back tonight but upon reflection I think what bothers me the most was the whole "Slowest car chase in the galaxy" premise. It's a mass plot hole just to set up a long and useless side casino trip (and to teach Poe a lesson?).

Sidebar, I was half expecting (wanting?) the movie just to end with the image of Luke standing off against the row of AT-M6's.
Was it really a plot hole?

They explained the reasons for it.

You couldn't send out fighters because the Rebel ship was out of the range to protect them and you would have just been up against the rebel ships defenses (they clearly detailed that with Kylo turning back).

First Order ships were too large to catch the smaller more agile rebel ship, and at too close of a distance to use lightspeed (without blowing everyone up as we saw later).

Rebels couldn't use lightspeed to get away since it would use all their fuel and the First Order would just follow then and they would be sitting ducks.

I thought it was actually an interesting show of tactics, and shows the growing difference between Hux & Kylo.

Hux was being patient. He knew they had the Rebels in a bind and there was no real need to take unnecessary risk. On the other hand you have the impulsive Kylo who made mistakes by not being patient enough.

It's no worse of a "plot hole" than there always being some easily exploitable weakness in a death star or some other big ship.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:16 AM   #45
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Rey and Kylo were both excellent in this movie.

I didn't notice the footprints but knew there was some trickery going on there as Holo Luke had a shorter darker beard and was not the haggard old man we saw on the island.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by chemgear View Post
Going back tonight but upon reflection I think what bothers me the most was the whole "Slowest car chase in the galaxy" premise. It's a mass plot hole just to set up a long and useless side casino trip (and to teach Poe a lesson?).

Sidebar, I was half expecting (wanting?) the movie just to end with the image of Luke standing off against the row of AT-M6's.
The casino wasn't completely useless, it shows them starting to sow the seeds of resistance in the average person.

Also, not every plan has to succeed, I really liked that the casino was a complete disaster of a mission.



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Old 12-15-2017, 09:52 AM   #47
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Rotton Tomatoes ratings for audience score are way down this morning.

93% critic score
63% audience score

A lot of die hard fans seem mad.
It's not really about being mad, it's more disappointment because - and I say this with sincerity and the clarity of a confused emotional state - this is the worst structured Star Wars movie in the franchise.

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Old 12-15-2017, 09:54 AM   #48
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Depends.

A lot of this big complaints revolve around the handling of Snoke's death/history, & Rey's parentage not being revealed.

IMO those will actually be less impactful complaints on second viewing. The reason it's so jarring upon the first watch is because people hyped up these huge reveals in their head for 2 years and when nothing happened it was an immediate disappointment. ...
Big time. I went to the double feature, and after seeing Force Awakens again I was reminded how that movie didn't put as much effort into creating that mystery as the fans did. The character obviously wants to know who her parents are, but beyond that there's no real foreshadowing that anything huge is coming. If anything the other characters (like Maz) try to downplay it.

My take on it was I was concerned through the first half (just wasn't feeling it), but I adored the last half. I was most excited for the Rey/Luke angle, but in the end that section seemed to really drag for me. Once Rey met Snoke I was all in though. Overall a damn fine movie imo. A bit weaker than the others, but nowhere near episodes 1-3.

I definitely agree that having Yoda with the attitude from 5 and 6 rather than the prequels was a big hit. I didn't even realize how much I missed him as a source of humour. That was my unexpected highlight.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:54 AM   #49
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Enjoyed the movie overall, few things stuck out at me:

The OJ car chase scene was disappointing IMO. 18 hours? Could the not have sent a few star destroyers east at light speed and have them come back in front of the frigate?

I liked the casino visuals, but having that happen during the chase scene make it feel like a wasted opportunity. I like the fact a few 'seeds' of rebellion were planted on the casino planet, just didn't like how the jammed in that plot.

Enjoyed seeing interpretations of different force powers, especially the force projection.

Snoke's demise was unexpected, interesting where they go from here. The battle after that was awesome.

One of my main gripes with the entire SW universe is that even with the massive First Order ships, Star Destroyers, Dreadnoughts and Mega-Class star Destroyers, they only seem to have a dozen tie fighters!

If the Death star, Star killer base, and the Supremacy ship had thousands of tie-fighters, none of the resistance attacks would amount to much!
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:59 AM   #50
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Did anyone else notice when Finn went to get a blanket for Rose at the end that all the Jedi texts were in the drawer with the blanket on he falcon?
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:04 AM   #51
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Did anyone else notice when Finn went to get a blanket for Rose at the end that all the Jedi texts were in the drawer with the blanket on he falcon?
Yup - forgot to put that in my notes.

Also why Yoda lighting it on fire and giggling makes more sense he already knew Rey “had everything she needed from those texts” because she had the texts already.

It’s why I think a second viewing is needed. There were a lot of little things like that which were very easily unnoticed in the movie that can lead to some grievances in the plot if you didn’t catch them.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:05 AM   #52
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Did anyone else notice when Finn went to get a blanket for Rose at the end that all the Jedi texts were in the drawer with the blanket on he falcon?
Ya I saw that as well, and I think Yoda said there is nothing in the tree that the girl doesn't already have, so he knew she took it with her.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:17 AM   #53
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so there is no planet destroying death star/energy weapon in this movie?
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:18 AM   #54
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Well....they really Jar Jared this one up.

The best part of the movie, by far, was the Kylo Ren stuff. In the TFA I found him to be way too emo and sniveling. His character development was fantastic. I really felt like he was developing into this character filled with self-righteous evil - the worst kind of evil. The conflict he had between light and dark was great.

Now the bad....

The tone of the movie was off. At times it felt like a Disney musical. In those fast paced scenes in the casino, where zany characters kept popping out, I genuinely thought I'd see Robin William's Genie break out into a musical number. A lot of the humour was bad and misplaced. It's like they knew what they were doing was awful, but thought the audience would be okay with it if they went to a clip of some fuzzy creature.

The space battles were all awful. What made the space battles in the original trilogy great was the sense of "realism" and tactics. This is what sets Star Wars apart from a movie like the "Flight of the Navigator". The original trilogy did a great job of blending the fantastic of a space battle with real life tactics of fighter battles. Poe being able to take on an entire fleet and disarm a flagship by himself was silly. The kind of crazy somersaults he was pulling were also silly. Rose's sister physically pushing the bombs out (WTF happened to Y-wings btw) of the ship without being sucked out into space, made no sense.

And the Rebellion taking out all of those First Order ships (including the flag ship) simply by ramming one of their own ships into them at light speed.....that was a total cop out. If it was that simple, wouldn't you just build an army of battering ram style objects? It also takes the suspense out of previous scenes from the series. If that was an option all along, why didn't someone do that? In previous films, the arrival of imperial ships, meant that you were trapped and couldn't get away. Apparently at any point the rebels could have sacrificed one of your own smaller ships and rammed it into a Star Destroyer....if only they'd thought of it.

Even that opening scene where Poe is making the First Order leader seem like a fool was ridiculous. It took all of the menace out of the First Order. Contrast that with the original trilogy, where you have all the Empirial commanders in the boardroom coming across menacing, and then Vader walks in and scares them. That was how you build a menacing villain.

Snoke....WTF? When he first came on the screen, I was shocked they'd gone so far as to reveal what he looked like in person right away....then they killed him? Without any explanation of who he was? They had better not bring him back as a force ghost. That is not the way force ghosts work. Which brings me to Yoda. In the original trilogy, the force ghosts appear more as feelings and ghostly visions than anything. They do not manifest physical forms and dance around.

I also felt like Mark Hamill really phoned it in. The way he kept saying "Last Jedi" really got to me. Yes I get it...that's the name of the movie. Reports are that Hamill really felt like they were doing a disservice to his character, and that showed through the movie. His heart was clearly not in it:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...-a7692386.html

Overall, the movie felt like it was written by someone who didn't understand, or hadn't even seen the source material. If someone told a second person about Star Wars, and that second person wrote a movie, this is what you would get.

My main issue is with the critics stating this was epic, and the best Star Wars movie since Empire. It was clearly worse than the two other Disney films. I had some questions about Rotten Tomatoes before this, but this is just outrageous. Even though the audience scores are all very very mixed, the four they have on the main page are all 4.5 or 5 stars.

Overall I'd give the movie a 2.5-3 /5, as it still had a lot of entertaining parts. Overall, it wasn't painful to watch. But it's far from the "epic" the critics built it up to be. It was definitely worse than TFA. It went in the wrong direction, instead falling into a lot of the traps of the prequel series: zany characters, misplaced fan service (look there's Yoda and he's doing something), ridiculous space/pod scenes, etc...They also really seemed to tear down major parts of the Star Wars universe/lore, with their treatment of Luke, the Force, Yoda, etc...It was on par with Midiclorians, except that it's easier to pretend Midiclorians don't exist.

It's really bizarre that Disney went in this direction after showing they were on the right track with Rogue One.

Overall, I'd say the movie felt more like a Pirates of the Caribbean movie than a Star Wars movie. That's probably my biggest issue. Disney really needs to pull back from these action movies. I really hope they don't do the same thing with the Infinity Wars movies coming up.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:20 AM   #55
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Wow,

I'm seeing it again tomorrow to digest everything. I didn't know how to feel. I have a sense that this is how people felt after seeing Empire back in the day.

Nothing I expected went in that direction.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:25 AM   #56
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The more I think about this, the more awfulness comes to mind.

The Casino scene was a total rip-off of Lando's Cloud City. Except Cloud City was done very well. The betrayal by Lando, occurring due to politics and pressure from a greater force was fantastic and subtle. In the Last Jedi we get...arms dealers are bad...and Benicio Del Toro's stupid stuttering character liking money.

Also the First Order is now a bunch of incompetent commanders led by an overly emotional and conflicted force user, with no actual leadership experience....I can't wait to see how this one unfolds. Should be a real shocker.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:36 AM   #57
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At this point I'd imagine they jump ahead 10 years from now.

The resistance is literally down to several dozen people and no support with their message asking for help but maybe in a decade they'll grow back with Poe being a more level headed leader, Leia will have passed in that Universe and Rey could have started her own academy starting with the little kid at the end of the movie.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:55 AM   #58
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For those who didn't like it, or had a lot of problems with it, I saw it twice last night, and the things that bothered me the first time bothered me a lot less the second. Overall I enjoyed the movie, but I wouldn't say I love it.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:12 AM   #59
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For those who didn't like it, or had a lot of problems with it, I saw it twice last night, and the things that bothered me the first time bothered me a lot less the second. Overall I enjoyed the movie, but I wouldn't say I love it.
I'm seeing it again tomorrow afternoon, and I can already feel my position softening on the movie out of love for Kylo Ren and Poe, specifically Kylo. He really carried this movie for me.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:19 AM   #60
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Regarding Leia's 'spacewalk', which seems to be the thing that bothers people the most, here are a few thoughts.

A normal person can survive about 15 seconds in the vacuum of space. It's hard to tell how long she was out there, as the scene cuts away and then cuts back, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it isn't the minutes that it appeared to be and is actually just a few seconds.

In the old expanded universe stuff, Leia was a powerful Jedi in her own right. Obviously the new cannon is different, but I think this shows that she at least has some training from Luke, or taught herself. She's a Skywalker after all, so the force is strong in her, even if mostly undeveloped. And we really don't know much about the intervening years since RotJ, so there is lots of time for her to pick some stuff up.

Even though she was blasted in 'space' she is still within the deflector shield bubble that is protecting the ship from the stardestroyer's volleys. Maybe the shield also holds in a small amount of atmosphere? Or at least prevents the atmosphere that was on the bridge from escaping, thereby buying her some more time.

Anyway, just a few thoughts that I came up with between the two viewings and since that help me get past that scene. I still wouldn't say I like the scene... but at least it isn't ruining the whole movie for me like it is for some people.
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