I'll try to answer your questions, based on what we know
Spoiler!
Was the First Order actually supposed to be a government in control of trillions of people? I'm not sure how they maintained that order with such limited ships or how they plan to maintain order with even fewer ships now.
Basically it sounds like the First Order is a conquering Force. They talked about Rose's backstory for example. The First Order showed up at her planet and strip mined it of all resources, and then basically when they were done they took the people that they wanted, and shelled the planet.
So my guess, is that the planets that the First Order Controls, are basically resource hubs with a weakened population, and they leave enough of a detachment there to keep control.
The Empire gained power via taking control of the democratic republic. Presumably were able to use infrastructure already in place on various planets.
Palpatine planned for every eventuality, that's what operation Cinder was. Basically if he was killed off then the Empire was too weak for his greatness and a more pure Empire would have to rise. So basically while he was ruling he established store houses and weapons depots out in Wild Space, he also sent a Super Star Destroyer out there with the best and brightest of his Empire.
If the First Galactic Empire fell, then Operation Cinder was put into effect, which meant that the remnant of the Empire went around destroying everything in the Empire, first of all to weaken a New Republic, second of all to kill off those too weak or flawed to serve the Empire. Those that were strong enough received the coordinates to Wild Space, where the Empire would rebuild as basically pure strength, the brightest and Strongest of the Empire.
The name First Order came from Rae Sloane who issued the first order which was to make a better Empire.
If the FO has no support from any planets, and the only forces they have are the ones that are currently surviving, are they just a rogue group of terrorists at this point? Surely some wealthy planet has the resources to deal with them?
The entire government of the First Order was on that ship, it was the capital, the logic being that they could never be defeated by one strike on one planet or base, the Supremecy just floated out there, the big mistake was on Snoke for actually bringing it into play.
Think of it as a floating island supported by planets too enslaved and too weak and too disciplined to form a rebellion.
The first order strategy was actually pretty smart, because they spent a lot of time advancing and designing advanced weapons, they might be smaller and more concentrated then the Empire was, but they were extremely well prepared and competent.
Plus by not growing into an actual Empire and staying small, the New Republic ignored them as not a threat and went about the business of coming to a peaceful resolution with the Old Empire, right to the point of inviting them into the government, where the Imperial Representatives tied things up in knots, and helped the New Republic to basically disarm, and beat the swords into plow shares.
Then when the First Order decided it was time, those old Imperial Worlds defected and gave the New Order, not only a big foothold in the inner rim, but also resource rich, wealth loyal worlds. They basically shifted the balance over night, but the New Republic still didn't see them as a threat, because they didn't see that the true power of the First Order wasn't in numbers, but in the pure concentrated ability of a relatively small force.
With the Republic in denial, and with the Resistance being tiny and not well funded, and with no ship yard or training facilities to target because they were all on one overwhelming mobile platform, weakening the New Order would have been extremely tough.
Is this whole thing just a handful of people just sorting out their personal beef at this point?
The funny thing is that its not a beef per say, the First Order was never about avenging Palpatine's death, that was the lie that sold Operation Cinder. They were never about taking back the Empire.
The officers that started the first order believed though the message that Palpatine put out there. That freedom and democracy are really agents of chaos and the galaxy is too big to allow that kind of chaos. That a galaxy wide government, needed to be all on the same page and that no strife could ever be allowed or you'd see civil war without end.
They were all about what they believed which was harmony through discipline and the imposition of order.
JJ Abrahms basically stated the idea of the new order came from a late night discussions about the Nazi's fleeing to Brazil. What would happen if they had gotten there after Hitler's death and spent that time refining, and rearming and even redefining Nazism without the hatred based philsophy of Adolf Hitler.
So then you spin it.
What if the Empire went into hiding and spent 40 years developing its military effectiveness, and training and weapons, and didn't waste time on the things that caused the cracks in the Empire which was Palpatine itself.
It's crazy how much of this stuff the average person who just watches the movies doesn't know. Where in the eff is all this extra info coming from? Star Wars books?
I'm not pointing any fingers at you Cap'n but I'd love to write a piece of #### screenplay and have other story universe experts and millions of nerdy fanboy apologists plug all the holes for me after the fact.
Some of the stuff people come up with to defend a mediocre movie is really impressive even by star wars fan standards.
Agreed. I've always said that novelisations should expand and enhance an already coherent story. If you need a novel to fill in plot holes you are doing it wrong.
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It's crazy how much of this stuff the average person who just watches the movies doesn't know. Where in the eff is all this extra info coming from? Star Wars books?
I'm not pointing any fingers at you Cap'n but I'd love to write a piece of #### screenplay and have other story universe experts and millions of nerdy fanboy apologists plug all the holes for me after the fact.
Some of the stuff people come up with to defend a mediocre movie is really impressive even by star wars fan standards.
A lot of it comes from the other books and source material that's been written.
The Aftermath books were frankly pretty bad, but they filled in how the First Order first formed. The Battlefront 2 game solo story with Infernal Squad was a big source.
Other books filled other stuff in.
I agree, the novel was needed to fill in too many plot points, and there was to me a major disconnection between the first movie and the second movie, that's actually very jarring.
I would expect that there will be more books and comics that fill in the blanks as well.
The one thing that I did like about the PT, is that for all of the dialogue problems, the story was pretty comprehensive in terms of the fall of the jedi and the republic.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
So I'm about 3/4 of the way through the novelization of the movie by Jason Fry. When I talk about Revenge of the Sith, I always tell people to read the book, because its amazingly well written and connects with the character and improves the story and especially the seduction of Anakin.
I'm kind of feeling the same way about Fry's book. Jason Fry is pretty well known in the Star Wars universe, he writes for insider, and has written several of the essential guide books.
He's done a unique spin on the ROTS novel which would have sections called "This is what its like to be" where a you would see the world through a main characters eyes. Fry has done that in this novel as you see things from a "certain point of view" throughout the book, from Rey to Luke to Snoke to Kylo Ren.
What's also been done in this novel is that they've added several things into the story line that actually help the story become better and more emotionally impactful.
So Spoilers ahead
About Luke
Spoiler!
In the prologue we see what Luke's life would have been like if he hadn't helped the Droids in a ANH. It shows him on Tatooine as a older successful farmer with his wife Cammy (Who was in the ANH novel, and played in the deleted scenes in ANH by softcore porn star Koo Stark).
He see's a Star Destroyer overhead and muses on the end of the war and the Rebellion and how that brave Princess renounced the destructive rebellion before she was executed.
Basically Luke is so guilt ridden over his actions as a Jedi that he almost wishes that he had never said yes to Ben Kenobi, who by the way was arrested by Storm Troopers.
Rose and her sister
Spoiler!
Ok to me, Rose is still annoying and I don't see the point to her character at all. But they have a scene of her and her sister in the Bomber getting ready for the raid on the First Order Fleet. They share a nice moment and Paige bravely goes off to die
Ackbar's point of view
Spoiler!
Hux is an over aggressive idiot, that's Ackbars opinion of Hux, that if you let him do his thing long enough, he'll Homer Simpson it. He's not the only one, the Captain of Snokes' flagship can't wait for the end of the Rebellion so that he can kill Hux as his usefulness would end.
Leia and Han
Spoiler!
As the Rebels are evacuating their base because they know the First Order is coming Ackbar pretty much demands that they hold a funeral for Han, and Leia while crushed by Han's death thinks that he would hate the idea of a funeral.
The really big star ship
Spoiler!
Snokes flag ship isn't just a ship. Its the First Order. All of the manufacturing and training and military strength and government was on that massive ship. It made everything from Storm Trooper Helmets to Star Destroyers. so in a sense, the assumption is that when Holdo destroyed that ship and the 13 Star Destroyers, that the First Order is pretty much crippled, Though Finn hinted at worse things in the Unknown Space, this is a galaxy pretty much in Chaos.
The Resistance is down to about 13 guys, The Republic is dust with the surviving leaders retreating to their home worlds, and the First Order War Machine is broken.
Snoke
Spoiler!
We learn a lot which leaders me to believe that Fry knew that fans were going to be pissed off at the no answers thing in the movie and the death of Snoke. So he did a chapter from Snokes point of view.
Snoke is pretty arrogant, he feels bar none that he's the most powerful force user ever and the future is his.
When Snoke was young, he learned that the force was always in motion, so he's very unsith like in that he's cautious "Be careful or die" Also as he grew older he learned that the Force Visions are always incomplete.
Snoke's a killer, people underestimate him and he uses that to his advantage. No one expected him to take over the First Order but he ruthlessly eliminated the original leaders of the New Order (Hux's dad, Grand Admiral Rae Sloane etc). He spared Hux not because he respected him or his abilities but because he's basically a tool.
Snokes rise in the first order wasn't about a plan, it was more a matter of shyte happened and he was ruthless enough to take advantage.
Sideous knew of Snoke or at least felt him in the force but wasn't sure what he was. As well when Palpatine died and Operation Cinder was enacted Snoke was able to take advantage of it.
Snoke's on a journey to learn more about the force in the unknown regions, he respects Luke for being on the same quest.
Snoke and Luke connected in their original quests but Luke didn't pick up that Snoke was evil.
Snoke doesn't need Rey, but wishes he'd run into her before because she would have been a worthwhile apprentice.
Snoke was already plotting to get rid of Ren once Rey was dead and the resistance was destroyed, he'd do away with Kylo because he was too unstable.
Snoke believed that Ren could be very powerful but he's too conflicted with the light side.
Luke's a bastard
Spoiler!
When Rey showed up on the Island, Luke was basically on his way to destroy the Jedi Library, not because Rey was coming but because he wanted to deny the chance of the Jedi rising after his death.
Luke pretty much lied to her face about Ben Solo, but when she fought him, she felt hungry to beat Luke, and he gave her every reason to want to beat him down.
There was a scene in the book where he played a really horrible joke on Rey.
They were meditating and Rey saw a boat heading towards the Island. Luke told her that they were raiders from another Island who would show up once a month to steal from the caretakers.
Rey wanted to help the people, but Luke refused because if they intervened that the Raiders would keep coming back in greater force and cause greater harm. Basically he was telling her that the Jedi shouldn't interfere in anything.
Rey basically can't handle that and runs off to save the care takers and stumbles into a party, the Raiders were relatives. At that point, Rey basically decided that she was done with Luke.
I'll finish this when I finish the book.
I picked up the Blu-Ray last night and the Luke/Rey joke you mention is actually a deleted scene!
I wasn't referring to fan fiction. There is a 3 year gap between ANH and ESB. During that time Han and Leia have been holed up together in small rebel bases for much of that time. We aren't told what has happened to them, but obviously they've had some kind of interaction.
Yeah I'm going to go ahead and call this fan fiction.
[QUOTE]You can obviously interpret the interaction in the ESB a number of ways. However, it's pretty clear that the main intention of the writers was to show that both parties were engaging each other with insults in a way that wouldn't make sense unless there was some kind of emotion between the two. I also disagree with your assumption that Leia just gave in. It was fairly obvious that she had feelings all along. You're saying that despite being one of the most powerful people in the galaxy, she was actually being abused by Han and only gave in when she was too worn down? And then she continued a relationship with him for many years after?[\quote]
Yes it's obvious what the writers were going for, but what they were going for was this really problematic idea that women just won't admit they're into bad boys unless pushed hard enough, and that on general it's not only okay but super romantic to keep ignoring the woman when se he says "no" if you think you know that she doesn't mean it.
In other words what they were going for is not great, and being that it's a major plot development in the movie it's definitely a black mark on the movie. It's also not just that the romance isn't great, Leias character in general is relegated from the buttkicking leader she was in the first movie to Hans love interest and something pretty for Lando to fawn over.
It's just one of those things that gets looked over because people don't watch the films as they are on their own, but instead fill them up with ideas and developments that are not actually in the film.
Or to put it in really simple words: the romance in TESB is still bad even if they later fix it in ROTJ and TFA.
[QUOTE=Itse;6636631]Yeah I'm going to go ahead and call this fan fiction.
Quote:
You can obviously interpret the interaction in the ESB a number of ways. However, it's pretty clear that the main intention of the writers was to show that both parties were engaging each other with insults in a way that wouldn't make sense unless there was some kind of emotion between the two. I also disagree with your assumption that Leia just gave in. It was fairly obvious that she had feelings all along. You're saying that despite being one of the most powerful people in the galaxy, she was actually being abused by Han and only gave in when she was too worn down? And then she continued a relationship with him for many years after?[\quote]
Yes it's obvious what the writers were going for, but what they were going for was this really problematic idea that women just won't admit they're into bad boys unless pushed hard enough, and that on general it's not only okay but super romantic to keep ignoring the woman when se he says "no" if you think you know that she doesn't mean it.
In other words what they were going for is not great, and being that it's a major plot development in the movie it's definitely a black mark on the movie. It's also not just that the romance isn't great, Leias character in general is relegated from the buttkicking leader she was in the first movie to Hans love interest and something pretty for Lando to fawn over.
It's just one of those things that gets looked over because people don't watch the films as they are on their own, but instead fill them up with ideas and developments that are not actually in the film.
Or to put it in really simple words: the romance in TESB is still bad even if they later fix it in ROTJ and TFA.
I find your interpretation of Leia to be extremely sexist. You're taking a woman of extreme mental fortitude and extreme wit and reducing her to Han Solo's pawn. Leia was in total control of that situation.
I think we're kind of judging a 1980 romance story line to modern times.
Back then strong woman were a oddity, basically in the movies, Men treated woman like crap, pushed them against the wall, over powered them with men scent and hi-karate, and the woman fell hopelessly in love.
This was basically an anti-romance between two strong willed people, and because of that it was kind of odd that Solo melted her ice heart.
I mean in 1980, I'm pretty sure that if you asked the average woman what her fantasy was, she'd reply "I want a man who's a man, that will take charge, and after he pushes me up against the wall and takes me, I'm more then happy to make him a Samwhich."
So that's how you have to judge Leia Solo, it was a battle of dominance, Leia was the wild mustang who couldn't be tamed
If that movie was made today, or Casblanca, or gone with the wind, they'd be pretty much universally panned.
Scarlett O'Hara would have picked up a knife, told Rhett Butler, that it was time to kick some ass, and that she didn't give a damn if he was there when she got back from winning the civil war, but dang nabbit the house better be spotless.
In ESB, basically Leia would have enforced that she's in charge and if Solo didn't like it then the airlock is over there, but in the meantime drop them pants and come to mama, and afterwards clean this ship up its gross. Then we flash to the next morning where Han is crying at breakfast and Chewie is looking embarrassed, and Leia is smoking a herbal cigarette.
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 03-29-2018 at 11:15 AM.
Reason: fixed inapropriate remark
I think we're kind of judging a 1980 romance story line to modern times.
Back then strong woman were a oddity, basically in the movies, Men treated woman like crap, pushed them against the wall, over powered them with men scent and hi-karate, and the woman fell hopelessly in love.
This was basically an anti-romance between two strong willed people, and because of that it was kind of odd that Solo melted her ice heart.
I mean in 1980, I'm pretty sure that if you asked the average woman what her fantasy was, she'd reply "I want a man who's a man, that will take charge, and after he pushes me up against the wall and takes me, I'm more then happy to make him a Samwhich."
So that's how you have to judge Leia Solo, it was a battle of dominance, Leia was the wild mustang who couldn't be tamed until Solo broke her and rode her around the falcon (sorry couldn't resist).
If that movie was made today, or Casblanca, or gone with the wind, they'd be pretty much universally panned.
Scarlett O'Hara would have picked up a knife, told Rhett Butler, that it was time to kick some ass, and that she didn't give a damn if he was there when she got back from winning the civil war, but dang nabbit the house better be spotless.
In ESB, basically Leia would have enforced that she's in charge and if Solo didn't like it then the airlock is over there, but in the meantime drop them pants and come to mama, and afterwards clean this ship up its gross. Then we flash to the next morning where Han is crying at breakfast and Chewie is looking embarrassed, and Leia is smoking a herbal cigarette.
She pretends she doesn't care about him, even though he knows she does. She lies to him when he attempts to express his feelings for her (albeit poorly by accusing her of wanting him to stay because of the way she feels about him). She kisses his friend in front of him. And really is just kind of a straight up B to him through 1.5 movies, seemingly because of their class difference. Let's not forget that she likely has a huge hang up on the fact that she's royalty and he's a criminal.
It's only viewed as Han being aggressive and Leia finally giving in if you don't think that Leia actually had feelings for him in the first place, which she obviously did. I think Leia's character was proven strong enough at that point that the audience knows she wouldn't have let him be that way with her if she didn't want it to happen.
It's also not like Han slams her into a wall and shoves his tongue down her throat. Yes he blocks her path, and his body language is obvious, but his moves are slow and calm. And again, the subtext of them flirting since pretty much the first time they spoke to each other makes it more romantic and relieving than pushy or aggressive.
