Vaccines don't cause autism (duh)

[fredr123]

Just for fun, I'm going to read the actual article later today published in the British Medical Journal by Brian Deer, the first in a series, so I don't have to rely on CNN or anyone else telling me what the article found. I would encourage you all to do the same: http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

That study does not show vitamin D as being more effective than vaccination - they didn't even compare to vaccination (contrary to what Natural News says, but that site is regarded as one of the worst purveyors of medical misinformation on the internet and shouldn't ever, ever, be relied on). They did compare to anti-virals, which is a totally different thing. Presuming the study was done properly, it does show some possible benefit from vitamin D, or at least that low levels of vitamin D may increase susceptibility, but nowhere close to the level of effect from a flu vaccine for the correct strain.

Yeah I get it. They did not compare vaccines to vitamin D directly in that study, only showing it's effectiveness against the flu.

But you don't see the news broadcasts telling people to supplement with vitamin D to fight flu now do you? No, no, they give you the impression that the flu vaccine is the only way to avoid sickness because big pharma cannot patent vitamin D (or other natural remedies), which is readily available and quite cheap and could (gasp) compete with vaccines.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by billybob123

Not true.

The issue was that it was infecting people who normally are the least likely to be infected - 5-24 year olds.

Data is in this graph provided by the CDC. Another stat for Germany is found here. Similar age spreads were seen for the 1918 pandemic Influenza virus; which is estimated to have killed 20-30 million worldwide.

Generally influenza infects and kills <5 yrs and >65 yrs.

So yeah, not quite "no more harmful".

Yes, we know the swine flu was infecting young, healthy people, but they were not dying in mass numbers from it. To them, H1N1 was "no more harmful" than a regular seasonal flu. To compare swine flu to the spanish flu is a little off base....
Anyways I'm done here, but I will not take any vaccines unless a real killer pandemic with higher death rates (like spanish flu) hits the streets....

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah I get it. They did not compare vaccines to vitamin D directly in that study, only showing it's effectiveness against the flu.

But you don't see the news broadcasts telling people to supplement with vitamin D to fight flu now do you? No, no, they give you the impression that the flu vaccine is the only way to avoid sickness because big pharma cannot patent vitamin D (or other natural remedies), which is readily available and quite cheap and could (gasp) compete with vaccines.

I highly agree. Pharmaceutical companies in the States make a fortune from flu vaccines. Heck, they even come to our office every year and charge $25.00 for a vaccine for anyone who wants one. You can get flu vaccines everywhere here, including the grocery store, for about $20-$25 a shot.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Accepted scripture does not neccesarily equal truth.

One can see many instances where religion has gotten it wrong in the past. Certainly religion has a very dubious track record. The fact that religion in this day and age has married itself to politicians and big government doesn't help its credibility at all.

You are a fool to not at least question whatever is currently passing as accepted belief. Those of you who are acting like it is a cardinal sin not to follow those beliefs, betray a blind faith in institutions that don't deserve such trust.

What I don't like is you zealots who have sacrificed independant thought and critical thinking on the altar of religious orthadoxy. Your "holier than thou attitude" is annoying.

FYP

Sorry but the amount of massive irony of the original post screamed for my cheese version of CB's post.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

[/B]


I highly agree. Pharmaceutical companies in the States make a fortune from flu vaccines. Heck, they even come to our office every year and charge $25.00 for a vaccine for anyone who wants one. You can get flu vaccines everywhere here, including the grocery store, for about $20-$25 a shot.

They also make fortunes of prescription drugs (much more infact) which in most cases are life saving drugs.

bast^rds!

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yes, we know the swine flu was infecting young, healthy people, but they were not dying in mass numbers from it. To them, H1N1 was "no more harmful" than a regular seasonal flu. To compare swine flu to the spanish flu is a little off base....

none of the flu vaccinations are meant to greatly decrease mortality rates as they are inherently low and would make it very difficult (if not impossible) to obtain a statistically significant decrease in mortality. however, the big benefit is to decrease morbidity, which as you know is a completely different matter.

as for the vitamin d versus anti-virals study, there is a big difference between primary prevention and treatment. comparing vitamin d with vaccines in any context is completely irrelevant unless vitamin d is found to produce antibodies that are specific to common flu strains.

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yes, we know the swine flu was infecting young, healthy people, but they were not dying in mass numbers from it. To them, H1N1 was "no more harmful" than a regular seasonal flu. To compare swine flu to the spanish flu is a little off base....
Anyways I'm done here, but I will not take any vaccines unless a real killer pandemic with higher death rates (like spanish flu) hits the streets....

Well, if you're done, then there's no point in me providing you with more statistics, from the same article I linked earlier showing that most of the deaths observed from H1N1 were in the 5-24 year old range, even though they were least hospitalized population. Similar to the 1918 pandemic.

Vaccination and disease surveillance prevented a worldwide high-death rate pandemic. Spin it any way you want, but these are the numbers.

And nobody is forcing you to take the influenza vaccine; I don't get it very often (I am a wuss and hate the sore-arm-for-two-days that goes with it). What's really at risk here is parents not vaccinating their children against ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE CHILDHOOD DISEASES and relying on herd immunity to save their kids from an early death, because of ridiculous fears about something that has absolutely no epidemiological basis in fact.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yes, we know the swine flu was infecting young, healthy people, but they were not dying in mass numbers from it. To them, H1N1 was "no more harmful" than a regular seasonal flu. To compare swine flu to the spanish flu is a little off base....
Anyways I'm done here, but I will not take any vaccines unless a real killer pandemic with higher death rates (like spanish flu) hits the streets....

vaccines usually take 10-14 days before they are effective so by the time we know it is a "real killer pandemic" it will likely be too late by the time you get the vaccine.

[Day Tripper]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah I get it. They did not compare vaccines to vitamin D directly in that study, only showing it's effectiveness against the flu.

But you don't see the news broadcasts telling people to supplement with vitamin D to fight flu now do you? No, no, they give you the impression that the flu vaccine is the only way to avoid sickness because big pharma cannot patent vitamin D (or other natural remedies), which is readily available and quite cheap and could (gasp) compete with vaccines.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah I get it. They did not compare vaccines to vitamin D directly in that study, only showing it's effectiveness against the flu.

But you don't see the news broadcasts telling people to supplement with vitamin D to fight flu now do you? No, no, they give you the impression that the flu vaccine is the only way to avoid sickness because big pharma cannot patent vitamin D (or other natural remedies), which is readily available and quite cheap and could (gasp) compete with vaccines.

I hear newscasts and radio programs always espousing the benefits of taking vitamins.
I wonder how much Vitamin manufacturers are making from this?

recent estimates have the USA spending $70Billion per year on supplements and upwards of $35Billion on Chiro's, alternative health.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by fredr123

It was actually me and I only said it to see how people would react. Sadly, the number of thoughtful looks from the people who took my claim seriously were far more than you'd hope to see.

I can imagine. There are times, when I dare to contemplate the ramifications, where it deeply saddens me that people like this are really a thing.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

[/B]


I highly agree. Pharmaceutical companies in the States make a fortune from flu vaccines. Heck, they even come to our office every year and charge $25.00 for a vaccine for anyone who wants one. You can get flu vaccines everywhere here, including the grocery store, for about $20-$25 a shot.

People are kidding themselves if they don't think some people make a lot of money from vaccination programs. Millions of people die from treatable illnesses every year in countries that can't afford to subsidize vaccines. If it wasn't about money first, then everyone would get them.

People also seem to not realize that the Swine Flu broke out in 1998 and it was hardly brought to any attention. Now, vaccines can be produced cheaper and more quickly, and suddenly it became the plague of the 21st century according to the media in the more recent outbreak.

Again, I am not saying that people shouldn't get vaccines in general, but there is a lot of business and politics going on behind the scenes in the medical community. It's just like a lot of environmentalist causes might have the best intentions, but many of them get manipulated to money making ventures not always based on best interests. It's just the world we live in.

When I went and got my H1N1 vaccine, I asked the person giving it to me what else I should do (ie. diet, sanitation, meditation/rest) to protect myself... I didn't get any useful information. I already knew some things, but I was hoping for more information. I just found it funny that they are so quick to promote their products like sales people, but didn't want to (or couldn't) give me any free advice.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I hear newscasts and radio programs always espousing the benefits of taking vitamins.
I wonder how much Vitamin manufacturers are making from this?

recent estimates have the USA spending $70Billion per year on supplements and upwards of $35Billion on Chiro's, alternative health.

Clearly someone's been bought off by big chiro.

wait... hang on... that's not right...

BIG CHIRO

still... not enough effect... just wait... i can get this. (how do these fools do it?!)


Clearly someone's been bought off by BIG CHIRO

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

People also seem to not realize that the Swine Flu broke out in 1998 and it was hardly brought to any attention. Now, vaccines can be produced cheaper and more quickly, and suddenly it became the plague of the 21st century according to the media in the more recent outbreak.

Which 1998 "outbreak" are you talking about?

The one that infected pigs in the USA in 1998? It didn't infect people. It required a few more 'rounds' of replication. Influenza viruses have 8 genetic segments (pieces of RNA) that mix when they infect together in pigs, birds, horses, etc. Eventually you get 'new' viruses that have completely new properties. That's what happened with the 2010 H1N1.

Or are you referring to the one that broke out in 1997 in Hong Kong? That was H5N1 (a completely different lineage) and was from birds, not pigs. So, it was a different virus completely; and not only that, HK officials slaughtered hundreds of thousands of birds to try to contain it.

When I went and got my H1N1 vaccine, I asked the person giving it to me what else I should do (ie. diet, sanitation, meditation/rest) to protect myself... I didn't get any useful information. I already knew some things, but I was hoping for more information. I just found it funny that they are so quick to promote their products like sales people, but didn't want to (or couldn't) give me any free advice.

Why would the person giving you the vaccine (99% likely it was a nurse or pharmacist) know anything about proper nutrition or rest? They're a nurse. They're trained to treat patients.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I hear newscasts and radio programs always espousing the benefits of taking vitamins.
I wonder how much Vitamin manufacturers are making from this?

recent estimates have the USA spending $70Billion per year on supplements and upwards of $35Billion on Churro's, alternative health.

Oh man, what a delicious world that would be.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

People also seem to not realize that the Swine Flu broke out in 1998 and it was hardly brought to any attention. Now, vaccines can be produced cheaper and more quickly, and suddenly it became the plague of the 21st century according to the media in the more recent outbreak.

The 1998 swine flu was not the same virus as the 2009 H1N1 outbreak, which strictly speaking wasn't really swine flu. The reason the 2009 virus got more attention was because its epidemiology was so different (greater effect on young people, less on old people), it was spreading very quickly and at a different time of year than most influenza outbreaks, and initial indications were it might have high mortality (and it did turn out to have abnormally high mortality for young people - but lower mortality for the elderly). Did the media over-hype it? Yes - but at the same time it was still a significant pandemic, and could have been a lot worse.

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Oh man, what a delicious world that would be.

What is that?? Fries from Taco Bell or something? EDIT: nm- googled it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Clearly someone's been bought off by big chiro.

wait... hang on... that's not right...

BIG CHIRO

still... not enough effect... just wait... i can get this. (how do these fools do it?!)


Clearly someone's been bought off by BIG CHIRO

Big Chiro sounds like it could be a Wrestling character along the lines of IRS or the Million Dollar Man.

He'd have to wear one of those stupid headbands with the big spherical steel plate on it though. Why? No reason. None at all.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

I understand your concern, but my point to people who have kids with autism is that almost all children are immunized. How do they know it was the immunizations? Immunizations start at 2 weeks to 1 month old. How could someone possibly know that their child was 'changed' at that point?

I was going to make this point as an additional comment to photon's earlier post. In addition to looking at the coincidence in ages between onset of autism symptoms and vaccinations, you also have to analyze the sample set of those autistic parents who relate vaccination to autism. If 90% of kids get vaccinated, then one would expect that 9/10 parents of autiistic children will be able to relate autism symptoms to vaccination.

As an example, earlier this week my son won the spelling bee in his class of about 20 kids and today he is going on to the second stage of the spelling bee where he will be competing with the winners in the other classes at his grade level. I told him he should put a little bit of extra time in studying if he wanted to do well. His response to me was, "Dad, I have a better chance of winning because there are only going to be 8 kids so my chances of winning are better than when there were 20." (Yes my 9 year old is that geeky, takes after his old man). I then reminded him, that those 8 kids each already beat out a whole classroom of other kids and you can't ignore that fact in analyzing the probabilities.

One of the earlier points raised by FlamesAddiction (I believe) is that fear shouldn't be used to push vaccination. I disagree for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the unique phenomenon of jerd immunity means that you actually have to hit the right proportion of vaccination in the population. If you don't, it fails. If you actually tell people that it may be okay for their child not to be immunized because most others will, you essentially give those parents an out to justify their irrational choice by thinking it won't hurt anyone. Secondly, fear for one's health aand safety is a great motivator and can be used positively. Stop smoking, lose weight, and eat healthy are all messages that are pushed by fear of consequences, and justifiably so IMO.