I stopped watching after episode 3, as I had completely lost track of characters, motivation, story, etc. Would an end of season binge be a good idea? Is it possible that everything would finally make sense if I just watched all of it over a week?
I wouldn't bother. I kept watching it, but really don't know why. It kind of reminded me of Entourage that way. The only way you can enjoy the show is if you really buy into machines are people too, and it is okay to change the rules on how they work to fit the narrative. For example, in the first season, the robots were programmed to act dead when shot and then they got picked up, patched up, and sent back out. This season, some can override the act dead programming, but for others, it is supposed to be all dramatic when they die.
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For those who want the timeline jumps re-sorted for conveniences sake, The Insider has been doing a great job of tracking things. Here's everything re-sorted for the first two seasons:
Spoilered because it's huge and also spoilers.
Spoiler!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
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I have enjoyed watching Westworld, but there are some frustrating flaws.
I can handle a little bit of ambiguity and timeline jumping. The first episode of season 2 sort of set up an interesting premise where Bernard wakes up on the beach, all the hosts are dead, and his brain is scrambled. I'm thinking "OK, so the rest of the season will be telling us how it got to this point, then the finale will probably continue on from this scene with Bernard on the beach". A non-linear narrative style that everyone has seen before, so doesn't take much effort on the part of the viewer to track the timeline.
But with the in-season continuation of the "present" timeline, as well as Ford being/not-being in Bernard's head, I sort of lost track of where we were and didn't care enough to think it through to figure it out. I think what confused me was when Bernard found Elsie, she claims that he was the one that locked her up. OK, so if that was the "before", then this must be the "after". But no, it was just one chapter in the "before", and apparently Ford had taken over Bernard's brain at that point to act out some things never shown on screen, and when we do see Ford and Bernard interact, it's just Bernard imagining Ford is still in there.
In the end the narrative they went with actively harmed my enjoyment of the season. I stopped caring to figure out where/when we were. I think a lot of others had the same reaction. After the finale, I quickly skipped back to a few scenes, and I guess the timeline jumps weren't actually that confusing. It's just watching week-to-week, with some episodes barely touching on certain characters, it's hard to recall where we were in the story. I'm sure on the page it seems to be easily trackable, but it doesn't translate well for the TV format (unless you binge it).
There still is so much potential in the world they built though. The main conflict and ideas just aren't as sharp as they could be. Free will should be main concept. Every time Lee Sizemore mouths the speeches along with the hosts, it is reinforced that the hosts are not as 'free' as they seem to be. Then it was mentioned that if a human's code can be replicated to the point where decisions they make can be predicted, are humans really more free than the 'programmed' hosts? It was briefly mentioned that hosts truly do have free will, unlike humans. How that could possibly work, I don't know. Maybe they could at least go down the path of emphasizing that the programming in the hosts is more complex than humans, and therefore the hosts are truly the higher beings.
But the interesting philosophical questions get a bit lost in the muddled storytelling, ambiguous motives, and games of "guess who's a Cylon now".
I wouldn't bother. I kept watching it, but really don't know why. It kind of reminded me of Entourage that way. The only way you can enjoy the show is if you really buy into machines are people too, and it is okay to change the rules on how they work to fit the narrative. For example, in the first season, the robots were programmed to act dead when shot and then they got picked up, patched up, and sent back out. This season, some can override the act dead programming, but for others, it is supposed to be all dramatic when they die.
When you look at the hosts as experiencing various stages of sentience it is much easier to be flexible on their mortality.
Spoilered for the benefit of Matata:
Spoiler!
For instance, Maeve or Delores reviving a group of dead hosts is different than Teddy committing suicide after fully becoming aware of the situation he is in and what Delores has done to him.
Hosts are humans 2.0. Delores said as much when William is trying to kill her in the finale.
Teddy's death had a huge impact on me as a viewer. He began as a prototypical "white hat" character ignorant of his programming. He was brought into sentience slowly, and reluctantly, by Delores. Delores transforms him into the "black hat" character. However, like humans, he cannot betray his core coding (white hat and love for Delores), and instead of living a violent life that betrays everything he believes in, he chooses suicide.
I also thought it was really touching that Delores transferred him to the system.
To me, it's more about buying into the fact that the hosts are evolving and developing all the same qualities of humans, except typical notions of mortality.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
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But with the in-season continuation of the "present" timeline, as well as Ford being/not-being in Bernard's head, I sort of lost track of where we were and didn't care enough to think it through to figure it out. I think what confused me was when Bernard found Elsie, she claims that he was the one that locked her up. OK, so if that was the "before", then this must be the "after". But no, it was just one chapter in the "before", and apparently Ford had taken over Bernard's brain at that point to act out some things never shown on screen, and when we do see Ford and Bernard interact, it's just Bernard imagining Ford is still in there.
I'm confused about your confusion here, lol. Elsie was abducted by Bernard in the previous season. At that time he was still under Ford's control, and that was wiped from his memory. Same as when he was tasked with killing Theresa. How she physically ended up there was off-screen, and she has been there and tended to up until Ford was killed.
Once Ford is killed, the park is thrown into chaos. Bernard stumbles his way back to Elsie, slowly remembering what he did under Ford's control. Skip ahead, Bernard enters the Cradle, where Ford's digital copy is and merges with Bernard's mind. Digital Ford attempts to direct Bernard, but he erases him just before he leaves Elsie. Everything after that is Bernard imagining Ford's voice and guidance, as a kind of subconscious.
Maybe I misinterpreted and you got all that, but the time jumping was just too jarring to care anymore? If that's the case, different strokes I suppose. I enjoy trying to piece it all together since it forces me to invest more in the story and characters.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
I also thought it was really touching that Delores transferred him to the system.
I am not sure that was necessarily a good thing. Did Delores actually fix Teddy before she pushed him into the system? Wouldn't he just kill himself again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamer
I'm confused about your confusion here, lol.
A lot of people may miss details or had to pause while watching because... life I guess. Usually I just pick up the things I missed on Alt-Shift X after if I miss something, but something tells me even his eventual video of that last episode might be a bit confusing.
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I am not sure that was necessarily a good thing. Did Delores actually fix Teddy before she pushed him into the system? Wouldn't he just kill himself again?
I'm assuming she did.
A lot of people may miss details or had to pause while watching because... life I guess. Usually I just pick up the things I missed on Alt-Shift X after if I miss something, but something tells me even his eventual video of that last episode might be a bit confusing.
For sure. I guess I was most puzzled about which part of that was most puzzling.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
For sure. I guess I was most puzzled about which part of that was most puzzling.
Well to be fair when you have Arnold creating Delores who kills Arnold, who then is used to "resurrect" Arnold as Bernard who then kills Delores and Hale to resurrect (both?) as Halelores who recreates Bernard again, the concept itself of hosts gets confusing and one could be forgiven for missing a step here or there.
I think the concept of the show itself and the out of order viewing makes for a fundamentally and intentionally confusing, though enjoyable experience. The whole thing is a puzzling puzzle that's mostly sorted out over a season.
I'm confused about your confusion here, lol. Elsie was abducted by Bernard in the previous season. At that time he was still under Ford's control, and that was wiped from his memory. Same as when he was tasked with killing Theresa. How she physically ended up there was off-screen, and she has been there and tended to up until Ford was killed.
Once Ford is killed, the park is thrown into chaos. Bernard stumbles his way back to Elsie, slowly remembering what he did under Ford's control. Skip ahead, Bernard enters the Cradle, where Ford's digital copy is and merges with Bernard's mind. Digital Ford attempts to direct Bernard, but he erases him just before he leaves Elsie. Everything after that is Bernard imagining Ford's voice and guidance, as a kind of subconscious.
Maybe I misinterpreted and you got all that, but the time jumping was just too jarring to care anymore? If that's the case, different strokes I suppose. I enjoy trying to piece it all together since it forces me to invest more in the story and characters.
I probably should have rewatched season 1. I forgot about how Ford controlling Bernard manifests itself.
I guess what I mean is the time jumping, along with scenes such as entering the cradle where the reality blurs and Bernard's visions of Ford requires some careful attention. Watching week-to-week without really thinking about or discussing the events in-between, I was just pushed a little over the threshold of having it all straight in my head.
After the finale I quickly skipped back to past episodes to cover some of the scenes I was unsure about and I recognized that it wasn't really that complex. I just haven't been that invested in season 2, so I was more casually watching it. But watching this season in this way sort of had a negative feedback loop. Misinterpreting one scene means future scenes make less sense, which made me tune out a bit more, which made me care less about future plot points.
Thank god I avoided this thread while the show was on. Absolutely shocked to read so much complaining. I thought I’d be scrolling thru page after page of unanimous praise. I’ve found it enthralling, cerebral, entertaining, sad and of course a total mind ####. If we’ve gotten to a point where a show with this big a budget that also has this much density and quality storytelling is considered a letdown, then TV as a medium has jumped the shark.
I binged all but the finale yesterday and today. I think this is at least as good as season 1 if not better. Any talk of it being slow or filler is romanticizing season 1 and not remembering it was a slow burn.
I’m shocked they were able to live up to season 1’s twists. To read the some posts here comparing it to True Detective S2 or a soap opera are laughable.
Binging a show vs watching a show week to week (and therefore year to year) as it releases are vastly different experiences. Not saying any "side" is right or wrong in your analysis, Cecil. Just that how shows are watched can have a tremendous impact on the viewing experience.
Just finished it up. Didn't really understand where to place the post-credits scene.
Anyway, that season became amazing again just as soon as Anthony Hopkins re-entered the fray. Go figure. Still not as good as season 1, simply because William's story was more focused than this more jumpy Dolores / Maeve / Bernard tale. Nonetheless, the last few episodes really tied it all together pretty well and it was a worthy follow up after all.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
For those who want the timeline jumps re-sorted for conveniences sake, The Insider has been doing a great job of tracking things. Here's everything re-sorted for the first two seasons:
Spoilered because it's huge and also spoilers.
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
Just finished it up. Didn't really understand where to place the post-credits scene.
Anyway, that season became amazing again just as soon as Anthony Hopkins re-entered the fray. Go figure.
Simple explanation, it is the future and both William and Emily are hosts according to the chart above. And that makes sense if it ties back to the primary timelines and the talk of humans not having free will and being slaves to their programming. No matter how many times William plays out those scenarios he always ends up killing his daughter and getting his hand blown off. Killing Emily is his moment like Logan was for Jim Delos.
Could be a lot of things going on with the last scene. I took it to mean that they are trying to replicate William by watching his every move. They are constantly monitoring him and then running simulations with the new actions to see if they've gathered enough info to make a copy.
No matter how many times William plays out those scenarios he always ends up killing his daughter and getting his hand blown off.
That makes some sense. My confusion stemmed from him arriving injured in the same way as he was in the "season 2 present", yet when he got to the bottom of the elevator, it's apparently the distant future. But if they created a program that re-played the season 2 story over and over to see if he'd do things any differently, for baselining purposes, that would make sense.
It would also be a pretty solid approximation of hell.
EDIT: Actually, I just realized that literally is the version of hell from Preacher. AMC / HBO crossover!
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 07-02-2018 at 09:54 PM.
Late to the party as I got a little behind when it debuted and decided to watch the season within a few weeks rather than fragmented given the amount of time shifting involved. Amazing follow up season as it totally exceeded my expectations. I can't wait for the next season to see where they take this.
I at first read Adrian Paul, and was imagining season 3 as an elaborate series of 1 on 1 robot duels to death involving decapitation set to Queen music, leading to a climatic duel between Thandie and Evan Racheal to be the final One.
When you look at the hosts as experiencing various stages of sentience it is much easier to be flexible on their mortality.
Spoilered for the benefit of Matata:
Spoiler!
For instance, Maeve or Delores reviving a group of dead hosts is different than Teddy committing suicide after fully becoming aware of the situation he is in and what Delores has done to him.
Hosts are humans 2.0. Delores said as much when William is trying to kill her in the finale.
Teddy's death had a huge impact on me as a viewer. He began as a prototypical "white hat" character ignorant of his programming. He was brought into sentience slowly, and reluctantly, by Delores. Delores transforms him into the "black hat" character. However, like humans, he cannot betray his core coding (white hat and love for Delores), and instead of living a violent life that betrays everything he believes in, he chooses suicide.
I also thought it was really touching that Delores transferred him to the system.
To me, it's more about buying into the fact that the hosts are evolving and developing all the same qualities of humans, except typical notions of mortality.
See that still doesn't work for me. He didn't really commit suicide as he didn't damage his CPU. The chips, or balls, are well protected. His body could easily be repaired, but instead, she just uploaded him to the simulation.
