Calgary signs 10-year deal with Abbotsford -QCOnline

[SparkyOne]

Well, season tickets in Abbotsford will range from $500 to $1,200, with premium club seats going for $1,500, so they better have something to draw the fans....[/url]

Seems the facility definitely has some "drawbacks" for fans....like only 400 parking spaces! It's going to take all night to get people in and out of there!!!

Which leads us to the Abbotsford Entertainment and Sports Centre. The $66-million jewel in the heart of the Fraser Valley is a 7,000-seat state-of-the-art facility with amazing sight lines, sound and the amenities of much bigger buildings.
Well, other than parking and accessibility. There are only 400 spots on site and the rink is situated off a two-lane street.
Neither Sweeting nor the Flames have a contingency plan.

I love, too, how they're going to "save" on flights alone. They're going to be paying for 80 road trips each year. I calculated an April trip from Chicago (major airport) to Vancouver (can't fly into Abbortsford from Chicago....) for 30 guys and it was a mere $15,000. And just about anywhere else in the division would be more expensive than that.

And they'll definitely save some $$ flying guys to Calgary. But what happens when the player has to meet the team anywhere but Calgary, Edmonton, or Vancouver? It'll take a day or two to get there!!

Hope those folks in Fraser Valley have some deep pockets! Or this 10-year deal will be lucky to last 2 years. Somebody isn't thinking things through....

[Canada 02]

^well, its not "80 road trips". It has already been mentioned that each team that flies into Abbotsford will play a double-header, so 40 home games, but likely only 20 trips in. Also, when Abbotsford is on the road, they will likely go on 3-5 game road trips, so 40 games on the road, but maybe only 10 trips.

They don't fly commercial, they likely charter with Westjet (as suggested in one of the articles) who already fly into Abbotsford. Regardless, using your $15,000 estimate, for the combined 30 trips (20 in and 10 out) the cost is $450,000.

The average ticket price is going to be around $20 (not including concessions, souvenirs, parking etc). So to just make up the $450K travel cost, they will need an 22500 fans per season, or 562 fans per game. Apparently QC needed ~4000 fans/game to break even, so Abbotsford might need ~4600. Pretty lofty considering league average attendance is ~4900, but doable.

I'm sure I messed up on numbers or made to many assumptions, but some number crunching helps put things in perspective

really, if they can sellout, it'll work. If they can attract a cluster of teams to relocate over the 10 year contract so that they share the travel subsidy over several clubs, it works even better. Long term, obviously, but i'm sure that is what they are thinking. someone has to be the trail blazer

[dobbles]

i look at it this way: if the wings were moving the griffins to abbottsford this summer, i would be pissed. i think this is a bad idea for reasons other than we are losing the team here.

pimking and i get the chance to talk to the backup goalies quite often. and every time san antonio or houston comes into town, they are exhausted. with the ahl having to rely more on weekend games, houston has something like 10 triple headers this year. thats just rough for the players. they end up playing games when they are tired and fatigued.and depending on travel, you often have fresh teams playing tired teams. a couple weeks back, we had a sunday home game against milwuakee after playing friday night in texas and saturday at home. milwuakee actually had a night off on saturday and watched that game from the stands. so when we came out for that sunday game, our team was totally flat and milwuakee dominated us. i can't imagine that makes guys too excited knowing that their opponents will usually be more rested than them.

i think having a team out there is a competitive disadvantage for the team. thats not a huge deal, but as has been noted, its often good to have players develop in a winning environment. additionally, i am sure long road trips and lots of travel can kill morale. also when players are fatigued they aren't playing as well as they can which not only makes them look like less productive prospects, it means they are more likely to make mistakes and even get injured.

[koop]

I don't think this is going to happen. If only 8 teams need to vote against this, and two are already guaranteed to be voting against it, I don't think this has a shot at passing. It just seems like the Flames and this Abbotsford group are getting a little bit ahead of themselves.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by PIMking

wow thats sad that they have to hide the fact that they are CALGARY prospects...

It's the rivalry.

It would be like back in the 90s with the hated Colorado/Detroit rivalry and Colorado moved it's farm team to a suburb of Detroit. Would people go there to watch? Except...probably much much much more hatred since it's Calgary/Vancouver.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

I don't care about those fans, if they wana watch the Flames than support them with whatever colors they wear. These are future Flames, I don't want them to disgrace themselves or the CALGARY FLAMES by wearing those hideous canucks color schemes.

These fans DON'T want to watch the Flames. This is Canuck country. What if Vancouver moved it's farm team outside of Calgary? Like the Cochrane Canucks or something. Would you watch them or cheer for them? No!

The Abbotsford team is going to have to distance themselves as much from the Flames franchise as possible. I'm not sure how well it will do. Hockey fans are usually the most intelligent of the breed.

What needs to happen is that it swaps places with the Manitoba Moose or something.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

So if you couldn't afford Flames games and it was an hour long drive to the Dome you still wouldn't go watch good hockey just because they were Canucks prospects? Even if that is a popular sentiment, its ridiculous to think it would be a universal one.

Having lived quite a bit in both Burnaby/Coquitlam and Calgary I would say that in general Flames fans are more die-hard and might have more of an issue with this than the reverse.

Your parallel between Cochrane and Abby is a horrible one just based on geography and populations. Abbotsford can draw from Chilliwack as well from further west and south and New West, Coquitlam, Burnaby, Surrey, Aldergrove, etc. There's how many millions living in the Fraser Valley? Certainly it dwarfs Calgary and surrounding towns. And GM place holds what, 20K at most I'd imagine. There is 2 junior teams in Vancouver and Chilliwack but do you really think that the hockey market is fully tapped out just with those 3 teams?

But mostly what I find ridiculous about these fan arguments is the overly simplistic logic of
1) People living near Vancouver MUST be Vancouver fans
2) Vancouver fans would NEVER go watch the Flames farm team play

Both 1 and 2 are quite questionable. To undermine number one you need only ask yourself what the ratio of Canucks fans to Calgary fans is at a VAN-CGY home game. Or ask yourself what the ratio of Leafs or Habs fans to Calgary fans is at a Calgary game. Have you ever seen jerseys that weren't Flames jerseys in Calgary? Have you ever met fans that weren't Flames fans?

There's lots of transplanted Albertans in BC. There's lots of holdover Leafs and Habs fans there just like there is here. There's some fans that have loyalties to other American teams. Some people may be new immigrants that are just discovering hockey and don't have strong loyalties yet. And of course as I've said its not a certainty that every single Canucks fan would shun AHL level hockey that was cheaper and potentially close than the NHL.

Anyways I just find it silly when people make blanket statements about the entire population of a massive geographic area.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

But mostly what I find ridiculous about these fan arguments is the overly simplistic logic of
1) People living near Vancouver MUST be Vancouver fans
2) Vancouver fans would NEVER go watch the Flames farm team play

Because of the success of the Canucks the lower mainland and Fraser Valley are hockey starved markets. I think the Flames farm team could DEFINATELY survive in this market, as long as they're not flaunting the fact they belong to Calgary. I think with the inverted V or even an entirely unique emblem and we would see tons turn out (but I would love to see the flaming A, I just don't think it'd work).

[Reggie Dunlop]

Time for hockey fans in Vancouver and surrounding environs to dig the New Breed as Flames Nation spreads its benevolent tentacles.

It could be a rousing success, especially if it were to be marketed as having no connection whatsoever to the Canucks.

[troutman]

I don't like this one bit.

[QuadCityImages]

What reason does any other team have to approve this? With their paying of the travel costs, they have eliminated one of the reasons to vote against it, but there still aren't reasons to vote for it. How is having a team over there in the interests of any other AHL team? It seems like they need more of a bribe than paid travel costs.

[604flames]

Everyone I talk to here seems to think the move is a done deal without really knowing any of the facts behind it. My only query is, if this move gets blocked, where do they go?

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by 604flames

Everyone I talk to here seems to think the move is a done deal without really knowing any of the facts behind it. My only query is, if this move gets blocked, where do they go?

Kanasas City Has a brand new arena!

Lets face the facts there are plenty of other lower league teams that would die for AHL hockey like the qc did. Hell it was all hush hush until summer time for QC in the first place.

They can always go back to omaha!

there is a nice arena in the outskirts of st louis. Who knows they might just have to suck it up for a year in the QC until they find a better place.

Its just sucks all around for everyone, Calgary, QC fans (well the ones who showed up), Abbotsford, everyone in the division now.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by QuadCityImages

What reason does any other team have to approve this? With their paying of the travel costs, they have eliminated one of the reasons to vote against it, but there still aren't reasons to vote for it. How is having a team over there in the interests of any other AHL team? It seems like they need more of a bribe than paid travel costs.

Well if the issue is contraction vs Abbotsford there may be a lot of reasons why they don't want to go with contraction. The Flames not having a backup option seems to imply that the Flames are making this into an Abbotsford vs contraction vote as it looks right now.

Surprised I haven't seen this mentioned already.

Contraction means unbalanced conferences
Contraction may mean slightly less leaguewide overall revenues
Contraction looks bad
Contraction means there is no longer a 1 to 1 ratio of NHL to AHL teams which the NHL itself may have problems and issues with
Contraction means that at least two teams would have to share an AHL team which has been non-optimal in the past from the NHL teams perspectives
I'm sure others will be able to add a few

Now lets examine the reasons why people might be against Abbotsford
It conflicts with the other interests (the WHL's Chilliwack Bruins) of a couple owners in the league
Travel

It Abbotsford is completely subsidizing the extra travels costs then we're really left with one reason not to vote them in and what looks like a few compelling reasons to want to keep a 30 team AHL. What's everyone think?

[PIMking]

well there isnt 30 ahl teams now as it is. Dallas has players all over the board.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

It's the rivalry.

It would be like back in the 90s with the hated Colorado/Detroit rivalry and Colorado moved it's farm team to a suburb of Detroit. Would people go there to watch? Except...probably much much much more hatred since it's Calgary/Vancouver.

The Leafs and Habs have one of the oldest rivalries in the NHL.

The Hamilton Bulldogs are the Habs' farm team and average a little over 4,500 people per game (which is in the middle of the AHL for average attendance).

Copps Coliseum is slightly closer to the Air Canada Centre than the new arena in Abbotsford is to GM Place.


Is it really all that different from the Hitmen or the Giants, when one of their players is drafted by an NHL team? Five years ago, Phaneuf was a Flames pick and Getzlaf was a Ducks pick, does that mean when the Rebels and Hitmen played at the Saddledome, the fans cheered for Phaneuf and booed Getzlaf? Of course not.

Hockey is full of situations where fans hate you one day, and love you the next.

Look at the guy wearing #7 for the Flames this year...it wasn't that long ago when he was one of the most hated players in this city (for some, it was earlier this season), but now that's he injured, we can't wait for him to get back in the lineup.

Next February, fans in Vancouver will be cheering on Iginla as their home team's captain, and booing the Sedins as the hated enemy. In January, they'll hate Jarome. In March, they'll hate Jarome. But if February, they'll love him.


Obviously, there's a lot more movement between the AHL and NHL, and more temporary moves, that it's a little harder than other situations like a Junior player being drafted by a hated NHL rival, but I think it's still possible to separate cheering for the future Flames while still being a Canucks fan (ugh).

[koop]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It Abbotsford is completely subsidizing the extra travels costs then we're really left with one reason not to vote them in and what looks like a few compelling reasons to want to keep a 30 team AHL. What's everyone think?

Just because travel is covered, it doesn't mean travel is desired. Also, when Burke was asked for a comment on this he said "I'm not getting involved, because this isn't going to pass" I don't think he would say something like that if he didn't know there was already a minimum of 8 teams voting against this. As for contraction, I doubt they are worried about that happening, because I don't see Calgary NOT wanting an AHL affiliate. So even if Ken King says there is no back-up plan, I'm pretty sure there is a back-up plan. Honestly, I would be shocked if Abbotsford has an AHL team next season.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well if the issue is contraction vs Abbotsford there may be a lot of reasons why they don't want to go with contraction. The Flames not having a backup option seems to imply that the Flames are making this into an Abbotsford vs contraction vote as it looks right now.

Surprised I haven't seen this mentioned already.

Contraction means unbalanced conferences
Contraction may mean slightly less leaguewide overall revenues
Contraction looks bad
Contraction means there is no longer a 1 to 1 ratio of NHL to AHL teams which the NHL itself may have problems and issues with
Contraction means that at least two teams would have to share an AHL team which has been non-optimal in the past from the NHL teams perspectives
I'm sure others will be able to add a few

Now lets examine the reasons why people might be against Abbotsford
It conflicts with the other interests (the WHL's Chilliwack Bruins) of a couple owners in the league
Travel

It Abbotsford is completely subsidizing the extra travels costs then we're really left with one reason not to vote them in and what looks like a few compelling reasons to want to keep a 30 team AHL. What's everyone think?

i hope you realize the ahl currently has 29 teams. the flames division currently has 1 more team than the other divisions so if anything, contraction would even the numbers out.

though i am not advocating contraction or anything, just pointing out an inaccuracy.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Heh by all means correct me, an embarassing error I have to admit

[Temporary_User]

10 year deal? Is anyone else surprised by this? Seems like a long contract considering how much they have already moved around in the past few years.