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Old 02-28-2021, 04:34 PM   #8041
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Perhaps that is what was meant, but co-dependent implies reliance on another. History does not support Gaudreau being dependent on Monahan.
It kind of does. Take a look how well Gaudreau plays when Monahan is out of the lineup. The difference is stark, and pretty strongly suggests that Gaudreau does in fact depend quite a bit on Monahan. But I think they really help each other, and don't mean to suggest that one is more or less indispensable than the other. They are both really important players for this team.

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Old 02-28-2021, 04:34 PM   #8042
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You are assuming they want a player of significant high value back. Many are assuming they want a ton of picks and prospects. Monahan in that scenario isn;t the base of the trade - he’s a guy who can take a centre spot in their roster while the picks and prospects develop with Cozens, Dahlin, and their other young guys.
If you swap Tkachuk for Monahan then you are most likely adding another 1st and a prospect like Wolf to the trade.
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Old 02-28-2021, 04:34 PM   #8043
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Can someone please point to something tangible that shows Eichel is this massive superstar? Anything? Seriously, anything other than draft pedigree and a bunch of opinions based on hype and highlight packages? What has Jack Eichel done to deserve this reverence? What elite skill does he possess? Sell me, cause It’s all horse #### based on his production and success. A player as legendary as the one being built up here should able to elevate at least his line to lofty heights, like McHobo. So where’s the supporting data? Where’s the success?
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Old 02-28-2021, 04:41 PM   #8044
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He's also terrible defensively being an incredible -66.
Now there is a useless fact. I wonder if playing for a terrible team affects that stat?


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Old 02-28-2021, 04:59 PM   #8045
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And I think that you ignore that he’s a 28 year old second line centre who has scored over 21 goals once, and scored 19 least year. Who makes $7.8M for 5 more years, with a NTC.

Monahan has more points in fewer seasons without centring arguably the best pure goal scorer ever.
Kuznetsov's a playmaking, possession-driving center. I'm more interested in his assist totals and his ability to make his line mates better. He's also an elite skater. Monahan possesses none of these attributes.

As for his contract, I'm not sure how that's an argument against him? I think it's a value contract for what he brings. Kuznetsov also has a history of elevating his game in the playoffs, as evidenced by his nearly PPG in the postseason.

Is this a real debate?
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Old 02-28-2021, 05:17 PM   #8046
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Can someone please point to something tangible that shows Eichel is this massive superstar? Anything? Seriously, anything other than draft pedigree and a bunch of opinions based on hype and highlight packages? What has Jack Eichel done to deserve this reverence? What elite skill does he possess? Sell me, cause It’s all horse #### based on his production and success. A player as legendary as the one being built up here should able to elevate at least his line to lofty heights, like McHobo. So where’s the supporting data? Where’s the success?
This is actually a good point that not many people have posted.

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Old 02-28-2021, 05:50 PM   #8047
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Who are the centers that are definitely better than Eichel who are under 27? I would have the following on my list

McDavid
Matthews
MacKinnon
Draisaitl

Then you have about 6 that one can make an argument are around the same (maybe better, maybe worse) as Eichel

Point
Scheifele
Barkov
Aho
Pettersson
Barzal

What is the value of a young center that is anywhere between the 5th to 10th best at his position for his age group and makes 10 million a year? Is he a guy you give up most of your remaining prospect base for? Is he a guy you give up some of your limited depth for?
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Old 02-28-2021, 05:54 PM   #8048
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Kuznetsov's a playmaking, possession-driving center. I'm more interested in his assist totals and his ability to make his line mates better. He's also an elite skater. Monahan possesses none of these attributes.

As for his contract, I'm not sure how that's an argument against him? I think it's a value contract for what he brings. Kuznetsov also has a history of elevating his game in the playoffs, as evidenced by his nearly PPG in the postseason.

Is this a real debate?
Considering he played with Ovechkin, his assist totals are what I’d expect. Except when he doesn’t play with Ovechkin, in which case his assist totals aren’t great.

He replaced Backstrom but now he’s been replaced by Backstrom.

You may like him better, but it’s not a huge gap and saying stuff like “31 GMs would take him over Monahan” is just hyperbole. If his 7.8M for 52 points last year is good value, then Monahan’s $6.375 for 48 is even better. One has 8 seasons, 395 points. The other has 8 seasons, but is younger, plays with a lesser talent and has 426 points.
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Old 02-28-2021, 06:28 PM   #8049
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BUF is such a mess, but they do have some pretty great TDL bait:

Hall
Staal
Montour

Risto/Miller +1 to UFA

Unless they are getting a Lindros-ish haul, I've gotta imagine they wait until the off-season for anything related to Eichel.

I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being a 3-team deal. They desperately need a goalie and to ship out at least one of Okposo/Skinner. What a mess.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:11 PM   #8050
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Eichel led the Sabres in scoring last year by 28 points. You get him away from that team, and Kruger, and put him with a guy like Gaudreau, or even Tkachuk, he gets you 100 pts easy. Dude won the Hobey Baker with 71pts in 48g, and that was in his draft year. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:24 PM   #8051
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Eichel led the Sabres in scoring last year by 28 points. You get him away from that team, and Kruger, and put him with a guy like Gaudreau, or even Tkachuk, he gets you 100 pts easy. Dude won the Hobey Baker with 71pts in 48g, and that was in his draft year. Just my opinion.
It’s not like he’s been surrounded by slugs though. Taylor Hall this year, Oloffson, Reinhart, Kane.

I get the concern. He’s not a guy who teams probably devise special game plans to counter.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:30 PM   #8052
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My eye test on Eichel has always been very impressive. He does a lot of things at a high level.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:32 PM   #8053
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BUF is such a mess, but they do have some pretty great TDL bait:

Hall
Staal
Montour

Risto/Miller +1 to UFA

Unless they are getting a Lindros-ish haul, I've gotta imagine they wait until the off-season for anything related to Eichel.

I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being a 3-team deal. They desperately need a goalie and to ship out at least one of Okposo/Skinner. What a mess.
All those guys are rentals, and underperforming ones at that.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:33 PM   #8054
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My eye test on Eichel has always been very impressive. He does a lot of things at a high level.
Skates well, drives play, plus-if we aquired him, we'd have more than one guy who can carry a puck over the blueline!
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:36 PM   #8055
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Skates well, drives play, plus-if we aquired him, we'd have more than one guy who can carry a puck over the blueline!
Please, if he can't master the drop pass followed by standing at the blueline and waiting patiently, he's just another chump.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:37 PM   #8056
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Can someone please point to something tangible that shows Eichel is this massive superstar? Anything? Seriously, anything other than draft pedigree and a bunch of opinions based on hype and highlight packages? What has Jack Eichel done to deserve this reverence? What elite skill does he possess? Sell me, cause It’s all horse #### based on his production and success. A player as legendary as the one being built up here should able to elevate at least his line to lofty heights, like McHobo. So where’s the supporting data? Where’s the success?
I mean Eichel has 174 points in 161 games in the last 3 seasons. That's great production IMO
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:39 PM   #8057
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Can someone please point to something tangible that shows Eichel is this massive superstar? Anything?
If I showed you something tangible, you'd just move the goalpost and start complaining about its validity.

You do you.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:42 PM   #8058
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My eye test on Eichel has always been very impressive. He does a lot of things at a high level.
Except score, play any level of defense, make others around him better, and win? If fans are pissed at Monahan wait until they get a load of this guy! Then again, there is a contingent on this site that prefers to cheer for individual success over team success, so maybe Eichel is the perfect fit for those fans? I want a team that plays for each other and wins, not individuals who play flashy and get their heads caved in.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:43 PM   #8059
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Eichel led the Sabres in scoring last year by 28 points. You get him away from that team, and Kruger, and put him with a guy like Gaudreau, or even Tkachuk, he gets you 100 pts easy. Dude won the Hobey Baker with 71pts in 48g, and that was in his draft year. Just my opinion.
We already have a guy that's won the Hobey Baker. This new guy may just get in the way.

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Old 02-28-2021, 08:47 PM   #8060
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If I showed you something tangible, you'd just move the goalpost and start complaining about its validity.

You do you.
Careful. This from the guy who has convinced himself Sam Bennett is a good hockey player and the Flames have mistreated him.
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