[Rumour] McKenzie: Hearing the Flames are very intent on moving one of Hamonic or Brodie

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Others have said it, but it bears repeating; the others you mention put up points. Those who put up points take more risks and create more turnovers. Brodie's turnover to point ratio is not good. And for someone who helps elevate Gio's game so much, why didn't Brodie end up with more points himself? It just doesn't add up. If he was an offensive defenseman, he would have more points. If he was a defensive defenseman, he would have fewer turnovers (and more hits!). So what is he? .

Yes I agree with this. Was just pointing out that leading the league in giveaways isn’t necessarily a bad thing. He’s a puckmoving defenseman.

However, if there was some kind of stat for ‘turnovers that lead to grade A scoring chances for the opposition’ I’m sure he would lead the league in it (which is in line with your brain fart comment).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Yes I agree with this. Was just pointing out that leading the league in giveaways isn’t necessarily a bad thing. He’s a puckmoving defenseman.

However, if there was some kind of stat for ‘turnovers that lead to grade A scoring chances for the opposition’ I’m sure he would lead the league in it (which is in line with your brain fart comment).

The thing is, every NHL team has a player like Brodie. What I mean by that is every team has a player that makes the (seemingly) most egregious errors with the puck in part because he handles the puck a lot. When the Flames trade Brodie, there will be another defensemen for fans to direct their ire, and it will not be because he has suddenly become a worse player, it will be because he is now a much more visible player.

TJ Brodie is a good defenseman; a useful defensemen who will likely be traded this summer not because he sucks at his job, but because he has become the most expendable owing to a combination of age, contract status, and redundancy created by emerging, younger, cheaper players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

If he was an offensive defenseman, he would have more points. So what is he?

He has 30+ points in each of the past 6 seasons. That's pretty good for a defenseman. In a 31 team league, 42 defensemen had more points than Brodie last year.

Only 30 defensemen had 40 points or more this year, which was an up year for scoring. Brodie didn't do it this year, but has done so twice in the past.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the stats for most points by a defenseman over the past 5 seasons and Brodie comes 27th in the league.

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seas...men-stats.html

He's not a Burns or a Karlsson or a Gio by any stretch of the imagination, but Brodie is certainly an offensive defenseman. His offensive production puts him in the top two for most teams.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The thing is, every NHL team has a player like Brodie. What I mean by that is every team has a player that makes the (seemingly) most egregious errors with the puck in part because he handles the puck a lot. When the Flames trade Brodie, there will be another defensemen for fans to direct their ire, and it will not be because he has suddenly become a worse player, it will be because he is now a much more visible player.

TJ Brodie is a good defenseman; a useful defensemen who will likely be traded this summer not because he sucks at his job, but because he has become the most expendable owing to a combination of age, contract status, and redundancy created by emerging, younger, cheaper players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mostly agree. But I still think he makes more mistakes than you want for a player getting top pairing minutes. His main skills are top pairing, but he is mistake prone more than an ideal #2 defenseman should be IMO.

That being said, an "ideal" top pairing defenseman is like an ideal #1 centre. There are literally 31 #1 centers in the league, but probably only about 10-15 that are "ideal" and not just getting the ice-time because they are the best option available. There are 62 top paring defensemen in the NHL, but probably half of those are just adequate, but not not ideal. Brodie would be a top pairing defenseman on a lot of teams, but he wouldn't be most team's first choice IMO. For the right team, he could have some decent value.

I'd be happy keeping him, but the team has to fill holes and improve in other areas and Brodie is our best tradable commodity that the most expendable.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I mostly agree. But I still think he makes more mistakes than you want for a player getting top pairing minutes. His main skills are top pairing, but he is mistake prone more than an ideal #2 defenseman should be IMO.

Possibly, but I am not even sure. Ideally you don't want any of your defensemen to make any mistakes, but they all will. I would argue that Brodie is a decent #2 defenseman and suspect that if he is prone to more error than most other #2 NHL defensemen, then it is not by much. More than likely we notice Brodie's errors and they seem frequent because we as Flames fans watch him a lot, and he plays a lot.

That being said, an "ideal" top pairing defenseman is like an ideal #1 centre. There are literally 31 #1 centers in the league, but probably only about 10-15 that are "ideal" and not just getting the ice-time because they are the best option available. Brodie would be a top pairing defenseman on a lot of teams, but he wouldn't be most team's first choice IMO.

I'd be happy keeping him, but the team has to fill holes and improve in other areas and Brodie is our best tradable commodity that the most expendable.

Exactly right.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Yes I agree with this. Was just pointing out that leading the league in giveaways isn’t necessarily a bad thing. He’s a puckmoving defenseman.

However, if there was some kind of stat for ‘turnovers that lead to grade A scoring chances for the opposition’ I’m sure he would lead the league in it (which is in line with your brain fart comment).

What??

Yes it is.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

He has 30+ points in each of the past 6 seasons. That's pretty good for a defenseman. In a 31 team league, 42 defensemen had more points than Brodie last year.

Only 30 defensemen had 40 points or more this year, which was an up year for scoring. Brodie didn't do it this year, but has done so twice in the past.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the stats for most points by a defenseman over the past 5 seasons and Brodie comes 27th in the league.

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seas...men-stats.html

He's not a Burns or a Karlsson or a Gio by any stretch of the imagination, but Brodie is certainly an offensive defenseman. His offensive production puts him in the top two for most teams.

The stats don’t lie as Brodie has been a consistent point producer as he’s in the company of some bigger name defensemen. It’s why I think he would fetch a better return than some people think. I was kind of surprised to see Barrie in the top 10 tbh.

[neo45]

So Brodie produces offensively like a number one defenseman with CONSISTENCY on either side of the ice.

And a lot of people on here think he is going to bring back a third round pick.

Prepare to be pleasantly surprised I guess

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Sometimes there is just no compensation or replacement for great chemistry. Brodie and Giordano have reams of it, and I don't think it is so easily replicated by the insertion of another player no matter how similar their attributes are.

I definitely agree that chemistry is obviously a real thing, but even though Gio does produce more offence with Brodie as his partner It still hasn’t translated into much success in the playoffs for either of them. I think Brodie is very expendable given a good return, I think Gio could produce similararily with Rasmus next season and I think that will be the pairing even if Brodie isn’t traded. You got the sense that Peters was done with Brodie by the end of the Avs series. I know they played obviously different minutes but it’s not a good look when Valimaki and Rasmus played with way more poise and awareness than Brodie did in that series. That tells me he isn’t a top paring dman, he still has good value but the flames have younger options that look to project better than Brodie. I think Valimaki and Rasmus will be in the top 4 next season which is why you are seeing Brodie and Hamonic being dangled. I am very much on board with this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SeanCharles]

Defense is the best commodity in the NHL.

We are lucky we have an abundance of depth due to great scouting where we drafted players like Fox, Andersson, Kylington and Valimaki.

Its not that Brodie sucks its that we have young guys coming and the cap to manage.

If it wasn't for Neal's albatross of a contract I would say this team is set up perfectly for success, now and in the future, due to how well Tre has done.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

...Its not that Brodie sucks its that we have young guys coming and the cap to manage.

If it wasn't for Neal's albatross of a contract I would say this team is set up perfectly for success, now and in the future, due to how well Tre has done.

Even then, Neal’s contract is not an insurmountable obstacle to success. David Backes is 35 and Boston will pay him $6.0 m for another two years. Alex Steen is also 35 and St Louis owes him $5.75 per annum for another two years also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Even then, Neal’s contract is not an insurmountable obstacle to success. David Backes is 35 and Boston will pay him $6.0 m for another two years. Alex Steen is also 35 and St Louis owes him $5.75 per annum for another two years also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know but it still isn't a perfect set up.

Neal's is the only contract I have issues with.

We are still in good shape but it would be nice to stop over paying, money and/or term, to 40-50pt forwards who are in their 30s.

That usually means they will regress to being 30-40 point players in most cases as they get older. You can get players of that ilk for much cheaper, Ryan for example.

Those signings just have so much risk involved, I wish we would steer clear.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Possibly, but I am not even sure. Ideally you don't want any of your defensemen to make any mistakes, but they all will. I would argue that Brodie is a decent #2 defenseman and suspect that if he is prone to more error than most other #2 NHL defensemen, then it is not by much. More than likely we notice Brodie's errors and they seem frequent because we as Flames fans watch him a lot, and he plays a lot.

I mostly agree with this. The issue for Brodie in my mind is that quite a few of his mistakes has come at spectacularly bad times and has been highly visible. What that does is make me question his judgement at important times in games, and there have been numerous times I just wish he would have played it safe instead of doing the high risk-high reward play. I believe it's those few disastrous plays that has hurt Brodie's reputation, not that he would be mistake-prone in general.

[TheScorpion]

I'm still just obsessed with the idea of a Bennett - Backlund - Neal third line.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - guy - Mangiapane
Bennett - Backlund - Neal
Dube - Ryan - Hathaway

Droooooool. Trade Brodie for a guy for that second line to push Backlund down and I'd just be thrilled. Just don't! Trade! Hamonic!

[gunnner]

Hanafin + a pick to Colorado for the #4 spot and draft Kirby Dach. Treliving is just throwing everyone off again with this Brodie/Hamonic talk.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I'm still just obsessed with the idea of a Bennett - Backlund - Neal third line.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - guy - Mangiapane
Bennett - Backlund - Neal
Dube - Ryan - Hathaway

Droooooool. Trade Brodie for a guy for that second line to push Backlund down and I'd just be thrilled. Just don't! Trade! Hamonic!

Who are hoping they acquire as the second line center?
Are you thinking Kadri?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by transplant99

What??

Yes it is.

No, it's not. It basically just means that you're relied upon to carry the puck most of the time when you're on the ice, or you're a Dman who makes a lot of stretch passes. Datsyuk used to be at the top of the league in giveaways when he was winning the Selke.

Giveaways and takeaways are basically worthless statistics, because they're both inaccurate and misleading. If you really want to know who's a risky player, you need turnover rate relative to the rest of their team, as Berkshire does here: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...reliable-stat/

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Who are hoping they acquire as the second line center?
Are you thinking Kadri?

Kadri would be sweet but I'd also be interested in Turris.

[Huntingwhale]

The thought of trading Brodie makes me sad. He is the perfect example of a player being scouted, drafted, then developed in the minors and becoming an impact player at the NHL level. All of this after being drafted in the 4th round. All this during an era where the Flames couldn't draft worth ####.

I'll never forget when Brodie finally earned a full-time spot, and Bob Hartley would rave about him about just how good he was, and Brodie himself had no idea just how good he could be. During his breakout season with Gio, they were anointed one of the top pairs in the league immediately. He even got a top 20 D spot on an HF poll about the best D's in the league. He was on team Canada's radar. The sky really was the limit for him. The Flames had finally....FINALLY hit a home run with a late round draft pick.

I don't know what happened to him the minute GG came to the team. Most of us knew it was a terrible mistake to move him to the other side. He had some personal issues in his life. Fact is, he regressed to the point where he is in trade rumours now and gets a lot of hate with each bad play he makes. Again, it makes me sad because he really was trending to be a top D in the league. At age 26 you don't see too many Dmen who are trending to be elite, suddenly fall off a cliff like that. He had a bit of a bounce back last season. But the poor plays that suddenly crept into his game still showed up at the worst of times.

I've always said that as Brodie goes, the team goes. More than any other player except for maybe the goalies. An elite level Brodie means the Flames are winning games. Brodie struggling means they often lose.

I'm reluctant to trade either players because:

a) If...big IF Brodie can bounce back to the level he once was, he impacts this team in a good way instantly.

and

b) the Flames D finally lived up to their billing of being among the best D in the league. After years of supposedly being elite on paper, only to fail embarrassingly every season, they FINALLY lived up to it. Brodie did play a big part in that at some points.

However if I had to pick one of them I'd pick Brodie to get traded. Not because I think Hamonic is a better player, or Brodie has too many giveaways. But because Brodie is a much more in-demand-type D then Hamonic is, and will garner a bigger return.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Kadri would be sweet but I'd also be interested in Turris.

RHS too. My only concern with Turris is that Treliving was with the Coyotes when Turris had his issues with the team. Would that have any impact? Unlikely but worth thinking about.