Canada plans to buy NEW Fighter Jets - F-35 reported chosen

[SebC]

Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Singapore are all smaller than Canada in population and economic output and have been able to budget for F-35 operations. It is an embarrassment that we haven't.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by SebC

Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Singapore are all smaller than Canada in population and economic output and have been able to budget for F-35 operations. It is an embarrassment that we haven't.

Yes but not at all surprising. I mean we are the same country that figures it's going to take what, a decade to procure new pistols?

Embarassment extends far beyong new jets unfortunatley.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by SebC

Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Singapore are all smaller than Canada in population and economic output and have been able to budget for F-35 operations. It is an embarrassment that we haven't.

I wish we would be like Australia. Identify a need, purchase something to fill that need within a few years, not decades.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

I'm liking the Gripen as well. I tend to stray away from the next best thing in tech in my self purchases, and frankly I question if it is at all needed anymore. I feel if we get to that point vs russia for example, it would be escalated to nuclear already. Then what's the point.

As well, feels like ordering a F35 would be like ordering the best tires you can buy for a vehicle, but you can only afford 3. Meanwhile, you can get tires that will suit your needs (Gripen) for cheaper, and get the full set and a spare.

Right now that cost advantage or distinction is getting narrower.


The Gripen E has a price tag of about 85 million us per copy, the F35A for example is 78 million per copy and the cost of manufacturer is still decreasing. The Cost per hour for the F-35 by 2023 will reduce to 30,000 per flight hour. In theory the Gripen E is estimated about 8000.00 but that hasn't been verified.


Right now a large number of F-35 have been deployed, and the Israeli F-35's have seen combat.



I think that the F-35 has better survivability against a advanced anti-air network, better sensors and awareness and datalinking.


In terms of the manned unmanned argument. I doubt we see a totally autonomous air force for quite a while and it becomes a tricky proposition in the day and age of nation state hacking and cyber warfare. However one of the interesting future states is that the F-35 will be able to carry, launch control and network advanced drones.

[CaptainCrunch]

The bottom line is that the Canadian Government whether its Liberal or Conservative have very little understanding of National Defense and its link to foreign Policy.


When she was pressed in the house last week around Military spending and the defense of the arctic, our defense minister basically said that the Coast Guard was there to defend the arctic.



Justin has paid lip service to increasing spending but he's been doing that since 2015 and done very little. Its going to take Canadians dying after we put them in harms way to get a temporary squirt of spending on the Military. Kind of like after the Canadians went to Afghanistan woefully unprepared and badly equip and the Cons went on a good spending spree.



At this point its not even about increasing the annual budget amount. The Canadian Forces needs a massive overhaul and reequiping to avoid rust out death and being unable to survive in a modern battlefield.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I wish we would be like Australia. Identify a need, purchase something to fill that need within a few years, not decades.

Again...in the realm of Geo-Political issues, we arent like Australia.

If Australia gets attacked it has to defend itself.

If Canada gets attacked....our southern big brother isnt going to stand for that sort of buffoonery.

They went all the way during the Cuban missile crisis...what do you think they'd do if someone attacked the country actually attached to them?

So Australia has to have an entirely different method of thinking regarding their approach to military appropriations than a country like Canada.

Not an excuse for our approach which can only be measured in geological terms. Glaciers move faster than this.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Right now that cost advantage or distinction is getting narrower.


The Gripen E has a price tag of about 85 million us per copy, the F35A for example is 78 million per copy and the cost of manufacturer is still decreasing. The Cost per hour for the F-35 by 2023 will reduce to 30,000 per flight hour. In theory the Gripen E is estimated about 8000.00 but that hasn't been verified.

That's an impossibly low number.

I swear people just want the Grippen because it's NOT the F-35. And we will probably get it for that reason as well.

Both have merits and both have detractors. It's a shame our RCAF can't just buy what they need and it has to be so political. It's also a shame we keep trying to do everything with one platform, a couple smaller more purposeful fleets would really make a better airforce for Canada. Heck at the end of the day the aircraft might not even be the problem, getting butts in the seat might be our bigger issue.

[dammage79]

At this point I don't really care which they pick, just pick one already Gawl Dangit.

Canadian procurement has to be the worst in the world.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by speede5

That's an impossibly low number.

I swear people just want the Grippen because it's NOT the F-35. And we will probably get it for that reason as well.

Both have merits and both have detractors. It's a shame our RCAF can't just buy what they need and it has to be so political. It's also a shame we keep trying to do everything with one platform, a couple smaller more purposeful fleets would really make a better airforce for Canada. Heck at the end of the day the aircraft might not even be the problem, getting butts in the seat might be our bigger issue.

It is an impossibly low number, and unconfirmed.



The bottom line is that the cost difference between the gripen E and the F-35 is shrinking rapidly.



I'm still on the F-35 side since our government seems to only want to buy new jets once every 40 years so we might as well buy as far ahead of the curve as possible.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by speede5

That's an impossibly low number.

I swear people just want the Grippen because it's NOT the F-35. And we will probably get it for that reason as well.

Both have merits and both have detractors. It's a shame our RCAF can't just buy what they need and it has to be so political. It's also a shame we keep trying to do everything with one platform, a couple smaller more purposeful fleets would really make a better airforce for Canada. Heck at the end of the day the aircraft might not even be the problem, getting butts in the seat might be our bigger issue.

I'm not sure why people want the Gripen at all, IMO it's not even as good as the super hornet let alone the F-35.

The future is stealth, every country will have high tech SAM's very soon, without stealth our aircraft will look like the Russian tanks against the javelin's

[btimbit]

The Jas-39 has a lot going for it, it's easy to see why the Super Hornet was tossed away, even ignoring the political reasons. It's not hard to see why it's attractive to a lot of people. Faster, more maneuverable, more range, cheaper to run, and while not stealth it still has a very small radar cross section. It ticks a lot of boxes.

The biggest reason to go F-35 over anything else would be electronic warfare. The way it's integrated internally with the Datalink and defensive systems is definitely the biggest gap, in my opinion, between 4.5 and 5th gen Jets. While it can still be achieved in a Gripen using an external pod, which is still extremely impressive, it's not integrated as well plus takes an external hardpoint away. This would be the biggest reason to go with the newer jet, and the biggest reason I'd be on board with an F-35 purchase. Stay on the cutting edge, especially since we'll likely be keeping the things for 50 years

Like I said, I'm happy with either of the two planes left.

[CroFlames]

According to Wikipedia, Canada has 94 fighter planes.

Do they have 94 fighter pilots? More? Less? I have no idea.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

According to Wikipedia, Canada has 94 fighter planes.

Do they have 94 fighter pilots? More? Less? I have no idea.

I think its 60 CF-18A single seaters, 31 CF-18B (Twin Seater/Trainers)


in theory there are another 18 of the RAAF castoff F-18's but I think a bunch of those are used as parts.

[MegaErtz]

Canada are just freedom freeloaders. Better off to let the USA take care of this kind of thing and stick to providing natural resources at knock down prices.

[CroFlames]

Dude where do you come up with this crap?

You piss all over the national team too.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

According to Wikipedia, Canada has 94 fighter planes.

Do they have 94 fighter pilots? More? Less? I have no idea.

More pilots than operational planes, trying to get seat time in is one of our biggest problems.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

More pilots than operational planes, trying to get seat time in is one of our biggest problems.

I think we actually have a pilot shortage, not a capability shortage right now. Its something that our former awful terrible defense minister was busted on as he tried to sell that we had a capability shortage due to planes and that's why we bought the Aussie castoffs.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think we actually have a pilot shortage, not a capability shortage right now. Its something that our former awful terrible defense minister was busted on as he tried to sell that we had a capability shortage due to planes and that's why we bought the Aussie castoffs.

Oh man, that flipped then :/

So we went from short planes, now to match it, we just got less pilots.... so double hurt.

[btimbit]

Could be wrong but it's not a pilot shortage, per se, like they still get an insane amount of applicants. They just can't hold on to experienced guys and gals after their original commitment. Its a problem that plagues pretty much every air force in the world, after a decade the BS just gets to be too much and as you move up in rank you fly less and have more and more admin crap to worry about. Driving busses for West Jet and living in Calgary instead of Cold Lake starts to look good after a while

[speede5]

What this fighter jet replacement has cost us will take decades to rectify, if we ever do. F'n politicians should all be held to account but they will buy something just in time to declare themselves heroes.

We have bled off so much experience in the fighter community that by the time we get new jets it will be very hard to staff the Sqn's. We are losing our Fighter lead in training capability. We can barely keep instructors qualified and have a back log getting students on sqn. We are getting to the point where our front line pilots are all green and that's when accidents happen.

It's a sad state of affairs.