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Old 10-18-2020, 10:28 AM   #1
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Default Nova Scotia lobster dispute

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Old 10-18-2020, 10:34 AM   #2
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Is it surprising that different rules for different people eventually caused issues?
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:38 AM   #3
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Is it surprising that different rules for different people eventually caused issues?
Really this is just a failure of the RCMP to enforce the law.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:40 AM   #4
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Maybe we should defund the RCMP. They seem largely useless these days.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:47 AM   #5
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Really this is just a failure of the RCMP to enforce the law.

Its not that simple.


The government has failed to listen to either side on this. In terms of the non-indigenous fisherman, they were treated like a cold calling sales person by Bill Blair on the safety side and the Fisheries minister in terms of how the licenses are distributed, concerns over out of season fishing, and commercial license issuing licenses and concerns around conservation of the Fishing grounds.


This has been building for a long time, and its more then just law enforcement, and now the whole thing has spiraled out of control.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:50 AM   #6
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What's there to discuss?

RCMP need to properly staff the detachment and restore order.

Treaty of 1752 was upheld by the Supreme Court in R v Marshall.

The Mi'kmaq have a right to fish for a moderate living.

Full stop.

Even if the Mi'kmaq weren't allowed to fish (which again, they are) its still illegal to assault people, burn cars & buildings and destroy property.

The fact that the RCMP went this long understaffing the detachment, in turn not enforcing the peace, is unacceptable.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:51 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
Its not that simple.


The government has failed to listen to either side on this. In terms of the non-indigenous fisherman, they were treated like a cold calling sales person by Bill Blair on the safety side and the Fisheries minister in terms of how the licenses are distributed, concerns over out of season fishing, and commercial license issuing licenses and concerns around conservation of the Fishing grounds.


This has been building for a long time, and its more then just law enforcement, and now the whole thing has spiraled out of control.
Fully agree that many factors have led to the current crisis. But what is happening right now is a failure to assert control. This isn’t an uncontrollable mob right now.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:53 AM   #8
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Really this is just a failure of the RCMP to enforce the law.
It also falls on the feds though. The whole Trudeau administration way of doing things that are hard is to just do nothing. Bernadette Jordan is just playing her role like instructed.

Different laws for different people doing the same thing is absurd and there is no way this doesn't turn into what it has, when there is literally a department and a minister in place to change things, rule on them and prevent all this.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
Its not that simple.


The government has failed to listen to either side on this. In terms of the non-indigenous fisherman, they were treated like a cold calling sales person by Bill Blair on the safety side and the Fisheries minister in terms of how the licenses are distributed, concerns over out of season fishing, and commercial license issuing licenses and concerns around conservation of the Fishing grounds.


This has been building for a long time, and its more then just law enforcement, and now the whole thing has spiraled out of control.
Open and clear communication solves a lot of problems.

I can't speak to lobbying done before, but the issue was settled by the Supreme Court.

Alas, we Nova Scotians don't like to ever admit that. (This is a touchy subject for me as we just had our municipal election yesterday with lots of people crying foul over an issue that was fully litigated).
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:05 AM   #10
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From what I understand even the supreme court has ruled that conservation takes priority. There is going to be resentment over one rule for one group and a different one for another group, especially when it comes to off season fishing.

Issuing commercial licenses to fishing companies who then distribute licenses was never the intention of the Supreme Court ruling over Modest Living which was defined on an individual basis.


The RCMP has been a failure on so many fronts, I think its time to gut the leadership of that force. They've failed on every front over the last 6 years, and they're playing politics.

Letting the PMO's office dictate their investigations, their outright failure on the Rail Blockades, and this.

The RCMP has become useless and a waste of money, they don't seem to want to enforce the law.


The government tried to ignore the problem even though they were warned that this was a situation that could explode long ago by both sides.
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:32 AM   #11
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More on the issue from the perspective of the NS Premiere and wanting a proper definition of Moderate Living.


https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-s-call...r&_gsc=A4QLegX


They really do need to get both sides to the table on this, and ignoring it has made it so much worse.
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:38 AM   #12
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My simple mind says the order of events for the Federal Government should be:

1. Restore order

2. Temporarily close the season to everyone, including the indigenous and non-indigenous parties

3. Establish a council consisting of the main combatants, and outline terms of reference.

4. If there is no resolution of the conflict, then proceed to litigation, and eventually the Supreme Court. It seems to me that the past SC ruling is far too ambiguous
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:55 AM   #13
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You can't cry conservation on whim.

Dalhousie University issued a statement that the indigenous fishery doesn't harm conservation.

This isn't a conservation issue. It's a racial one. If it were a conservation issue then the fishers would be trying foul of Clearwater.

Restore order. Respect the rules. Uphold treaty rights.

I'm all for defining a moderate living. Since the number of traps per Mi'kmaq fisher is lower than that of a federal licensee (I believe its about 1/5 the traps but in fairness I'm going on my fuzzy memory here) then their treaty rights should be respected as it currently is until an agreement on the definition of "moderate" is determined.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:03 PM   #14
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Things are really boiling over. Someone butter get control of this situation bisque-for it escalates. Some really shellfish acts being committed.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:16 PM   #15
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Things are really boiling over. Someone butter get control of this situation bisque-for is escalates. Some really shellfish acts being committed.
I'll allow it.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:18 PM   #16
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The Feds have had over 20 years to define what "moderate livelihood" means as per the Supreme Court's Marshall decision.

Successive federal governments decided to stick their head in the sand and ignore the issue.

Eventually, First Nations got tired of waiting, while their members generally lived in poverty.

Commercial fisherman are upset because they feel that First Nations fishers are depleteing the fishing stocks. These fisheries are the only economic option for a good income in these remote, small towns.

Where does the blame lie in this mess? It has to be the federal government. Their inaction has pitted sides against each other.

Good luck fixing this mess.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout View Post
You can't cry conservation on whim.

Dalhousie University issued a statement that the indigenous fishery doesn't harm conservation.

This isn't a conservation issue. It's a racial one. If it were a conservation issue then the fishers would be trying foul of Clearwater.

Restore order. Respect the rules. Uphold treaty rights.

I'm all for defining a moderate living. Since the number of traps per Mi'kmaq fisher is lower than that of a federal licensee (I believe its about 1/5 the traps but in fairness I'm going on my fuzzy memory here) then their treaty rights should be respected as it currently is until an agreement on the definition of "moderate" is determined.
Did the lady from Dalhousie who has been quoted around actually comment on conservation? All I saw was amount of traps in relation to commercial fisheries.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Johnny199r View Post
The Feds have had over 20 years to define what "moderate livelihood" means as per the Supreme Court's Marshall decision.

Successive federal governments decided to stick their head in the sand and ignore the issue.

Eventually, First Nations got tired of waiting, while their members generally lived in poverty.

Commercial fisherman are upset because they feel that First Nations fishers are depleteing the fishing stocks. These fisheries are the only economic option for a good income in these remote, small towns.

Where does the blame lie in this mess? It has to be the federal government. Their inaction has pitted sides against each other.

Good luck fixing this mess.
This has been some fine examples of true Leadership and respect for the Rule of Law.

The Federal Government and the RCMP are really showing all out class lately.

I know 'Defund the Police' doesnt mean what it sounds like it means, but at this point we may as well geuinely defund the RCMP. Doesnt seem like we're getting our money's worth.

I mean, if all we're expecting is guys with guns sitting on lawn-chairs watching a train-wreck happen I know guys who will do that for free Pizza and Beer.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:28 PM   #19
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It also falls on the feds though. The whole Trudeau administration way of doing things that are hard is to just do nothing. Bernadette Jordan is just playing her role like instructed.

Different laws for different people doing the same thing is absurd and there is no way this doesn't turn into what it has, when there is literally a department and a minister in place to change things, rule on them and prevent all this.
These aren't different laws for the different people.

It’s just an incorrect way of looking at the treaties.

The government in exchange for land made long term deals with certain people.

The entire foundation of our economy is based on binding contracts enforced by government. The government can’t just unilaterally break the treaties. And the people that benefited from the treaties for hundreds of years don’t get now say that it’s not fair. The government of Canada made a deal and the government of Canada needs to live up to their end of the bargain.

Moderate living needs to be defined by the government and litigated if required. Then the rest of the fishery needs to be sized for sustainability. The very land that these towns exist on is predicated on this treaty existing.

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Old 10-18-2020, 01:33 PM   #20
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Did the lady from Dalhousie who has been quoted around actually comment on conservation? All I saw was amount of traps in relation to commercial fisheries.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5734030

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A university professor who studies fisheries management says the Mi'kmaw fishery in southwest Nova Scotia won't harm lobster stocks — as commercial fishermen have argued — given its small scale.

Megan Bailey is an associate professor and Canada Research Chair in integrated ocean and coastal governance at Dalhousie University in Halifax.
I also thought this was an interesting read to learn about the situation.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/op...-think-509373/

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Currently, Mi’kmaw lobster livelihood fishers are limited through the Marshall decision to acquire only a moderate livelihood. To accommodate that limit, Mi’kmaw fishers/communities set trap limits that are less than the smallest commercial fishery possible (i.e., 75 traps) with even fewer Mi’kmaw lobster harvesters fishing the maximum allotment.

Imagine if each commercial lobster licence holder — there are over 3,000 inshore lobster licences in the Maritimes alone — with the equivalent of over 820,725 traps shared access by reducing their maximum trap allocation by one per cent. This would translate to a reduction of 2.5 to four traps for each lobster licence holder annually. Overall, this would provide access equivalent to 8,207-plus traps for a Mi’kmaq livelihood fishery in the Maritimes region of Nova Scotia.

Given that the livelihood fishery is negligible in comparison to the commercial lobster fishery, this may likely suffice in the interim for the Mi’kmaw First Nations in Nova Scotia engaged in livelihood lobster fishing. Whatever trap allocation is not used by either the Mi’kmaw livelihood fishers or their commercial counterparts could be considered their contribution to sustainability.

Isn’t it worth each commercial licence holder exploring giving up 2.5 to four traps annually in return for building better relations, avoiding conflict, and abiding by the multiple decisions of the courts?

If those are not good enough reasons, and the fear in the industry is that the Mi’kmaw livelihood fishers are indeed a threat to the resource, isn’t giving up 2.5 to four traps worth protecting your livelihood?
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