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Old 10-01-2020, 12:29 PM   #41
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The word systematic is also a slippery slope. Could the nurses be racist? Yes. Could the entire staff of that unit be racist? Yes. But systematic racism would mean that all aboriginals are treated poorly by the institution where they are not even admitted to the hospital at all or not treated.

Also, language seems to have it's own rules. From above, you can't call someone oriental but you can call them asian. You can call someone white, brown or black and you can't call someone red or yellow.
We have an Act in Canada that legislates systemic racism and a parental relationship over First Nations people. We have systemic racism in Canada because it has been legislated into the system.

You seem to be confusing individual racism of was the nurse being racist or just an #######

With

Do we have systems in place that lead to disproportionately negative outcomes for First Nations people. The answer to the second is obviously yes by any single metric you can measure First Nations people are poorer life outcomes.

Anyone who questions whether systemic racism exists in Canada is uneducated.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:52 PM   #42
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I'm not confusing them, I am answering different posts. TheIronMaiden and afc wimbledon have clearly provided examples of systemic racism.

The nurses, that's not as clear.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:54 PM   #43
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I have no background knowledge about foster services in Canada, but I came across discussion of foster services among some first nations Canadians yesterday that made me aware of how much of an issue foster services are for first nations communities.

Their discussion was pointing out that First Nations Child and Family Services was started in 1998, two years after the residential school system was officially ended, and that the percentage of kids in foster services who are indigenous is very high in some provinces despite indigenous people only making up a small percentage of the overall population. Several participants also shared how they had been taken from their indigenous mothers and put in numerous non-indigenous foster homes where they had experienced abuse as children, also sharing that they believed their mothers' lives had only really fallen apart after they had been separated from them. There were some implications that First Nations Child and Family Services was essentially just an extension of the residential school system and that it has been a vehicle for the racist separation of indigenous families and the abuse of indigenous children to this day.

As I have no real background knowledge, I would love to hear from somebody who has more familiarity with foster services in Canada. AFC maybe? Anybody else close to this?

Looking up the stats on percentage of foster children who are indigenous on wikipedia, it is shocking.
BC = 56%
Alberta = 74%
Saskatchewan = 87%
Manitoba = 84%
Yukon = 100%
NWT = 94%
Nunavut = 100%

Edit: For added context, as of the 2016 census only 4.9% of Canadians are indigenous.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:13 PM   #44
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What dangerous path is that?
If everything negative that happens to a minority is construed as racism, then the spectre of racism will never go away, regardless of how much progress is made. That's why you have people today genuinely believing that things have not improved from where we were 50 years ago.

When we are unwilling to differentiate racist behaviour from bad behaviour in general, we will never be able to calm racial tensions. If people are unconcerned with addressing a problem correctly, how likely are we to solve it?
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:17 PM   #45
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My wife who has dealt with racism all her life describes Canada as worse than the US, in that Canadians practice passive aggressive embedded racism and claim to be virtuous while doing it versus direct racism, and it's engrained in the psyche (people don't even realize it). Worse is how Canadians pat themselves on the back, heck we even re-elected a PM who thought that doing blackface on multiple occasions for kicks is ok, because he apologized when caught (truly Canadian).

Not a team player
Not a fit with the team or culture
Not up to the tasks

These are all words that I am sure we have seen, or even said ourselves before, but what makes a person not a team player? Sometimes that answer is racist in itself.

She has been flown in to interviews across the country at times, she gets seen for the first time in person in a 'family oriented' city (she uses her married Canadian sounding last name), and the person interviewing her looks her up and down, they do a quick 15 minute interview, and tell her the next day they are not proceeding as they feel she would not be able to fit in with the culture (actual reason).

Seriously. How are you supposed to take that in and tell her that things are good here?
That's a great description, and I will confess to having been guilty of it myself. Growing up I was quite conscious of the racism towards first nations people, but otherwise I was pretty accepting of the story of Canada as a diverse and welcoming country where racism wasn't tolerated.

That story shaped my view of Canada that I carried with me over many years abroad and I was a proponent of that view of Canada, sharing that idea with others around the world.

It wasn't really until I came back to Canada a little over a year ago and looked at Canadian society with fresh eyes that I came to recognize how prevalent racism is in Canada. I feel a bit like a fool when I think back now on conversations had with other Canadians abroad who I disagreed with when they described the racism in Canada. I realize now that I was just blind to it growing up. It's woven tightly into the fabric of Canada, but it's hard to see when you've grown up steeped in the virtuous story of Canadian multiculturalism.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:23 PM   #46
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If everything negative that happens to a minority is construed as racism, then the spectre of racism will never go away, regardless of how much progress is made. That's why you have people today genuinely believing that things have not improved from where we were 50 years ago.

When we are unwilling to differentiate racist behaviour from bad behaviour in general, we will never be able to calm racial tensions. If people are unconcerned with addressing a problem correctly, how likely are we to solve it?
The otherside of that coin though is then you're giving back the power to the racists as long as they aren't wearing a KKK robe when they do this stuff.

But if anyone truly believes these nurses would have said the same thing to some white "Karen" and this wasn't because this person was Indigenous, they are actively turning a blind eye to racism.

The systemic part was that Ms. Echaquan had received poor treatment enough times that she knew she had to record in the first place. But the nurses were just racist and chalking it up to 'bad behaviour' downplays what happened (and I'm not suggesting this is what you did).

Yeah, calling someone racist because they have a difference of opinion isn't cool, but when you have someone saying they are only good for sex as she lays in agony and ultimately dies, that's when we need to start calling a spade a spade.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:40 PM   #47
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I have no background knowledge about foster services in Canada, but I came across discussion of foster services among some first nations Canadians yesterday that made me aware of how much of an issue foster services are for first nations communities.

Their discussion was pointing out that First Nations Child and Family Services was started in 1998, two years after the residential school system was officially ended, and that the percentage of kids in foster services who are indigenous is very high in some provinces despite indigenous people only making up a small percentage of the overall population. Several participants also shared how they had been taken from their indigenous mothers and put in numerous non-indigenous foster homes where they had experienced abuse as children, also sharing that they believed their mothers' lives had only really fallen apart after they had been separated from them. There were some implications that First Nations Child and Family Services was essentially just an extension of the residential school system and that it has been a vehicle for the racist separation of indigenous families and the abuse of indigenous children to this day.

As I have no real background knowledge, I would love to hear from somebody who has more familiarity with foster services in Canada. AFC maybe? Anybody else close to this?

Looking up the stats on percentage of foster children who are indigenous on wikipedia, it is shocking.
BC = 56%
Alberta = 74%
Saskatchewan = 87%
Manitoba = 84%
Yukon = 100%
NWT = 94%
Nunavut = 100%
Wow. I knew that the foster system had a LOT of indigenous children, but this is insane.

I have two sets of friends who both adopted an indigenous child that was coming from an abusive situation, and it is a painful and sad procedure despite the amazing joy both families have gotten as a result of the children they adopted.

What I don't get about foster & adoption system is the red tape around it. At some point surely the positivity of being able to adopt a child who has no parents should erase some of the red tape that families have to go through in order to be approved. Never understood that.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:58 PM   #48
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Wow. I knew that the foster system had a LOT of indigenous children, but this is insane.

I have two sets of friends who both adopted an indigenous child that was coming from an abusive situation, and it is a painful and sad procedure despite the amazing joy both families have gotten as a result of the children they adopted.

What I don't get about foster & adoption system is the red tape around it. At some point surely the positivity of being able to adopt a child who has no parents should erase some of the red tape that families have to go through in order to be approved. Never understood that.
I know someone who themselves 'adopted' a family of children, outside of the normal foster parent stream.

I don't know the exact details, but the person I know was a neighbour to a mother that was raising her three children by herself. The children's father was in jail (long term, I believe for murder). When the mother's drug problem lead to her arrest, the kids immediately moved in with the person I know (and her daughter, making for 4 kids in the household). It was all of a few weeks and a hearing granted her some sort of (semi?) permanent custody over the children. All-in-all, it seemed to be a strangely quick process without a lot of consideration. Very surprising actually.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:37 PM   #49
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Wow. I knew that the foster system had a LOT of indigenous children, but this is insane.

I have two sets of friends who both adopted an indigenous child that was coming from an abusive situation, and it is a painful and sad procedure despite the amazing joy both families have gotten as a result of the children they adopted.

What I don't get about foster & adoption system is the red tape around it. At some point surely the positivity of being able to adopt a child who has no parents should erase some of the red tape that families have to go through in order to be approved. Never understood that.
If possible, extended family and people who are familiar with the children at the first option. For people who aren't and are just looking to adopt, the goal is to put the children under government care into a good family situation, so just "willing to adopt" isn't enough. The other side of that, is that many children are indigenous, have behavioural or development issues, are older, or a mix of the three, and there is not an abundance of adoptive parents willing to take that on, sadly. On top of that, the priority with indigenous children is always to place them with indigenous caregivers. If someone who is not indigenous wishes to adopt an indigenous child, they need to commit to providing opportunities that ensure the child maintains a close connection with their culture.

The red tape may seem counter-intuitive sometimes, but the priority is always to do what is best for the child in all circumstances, and a lot of the red tape is to ensure that happens.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:50 PM   #50
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I understand how careful the system is trying to be, but the alternative is much, much worse.

Both the families I mentioned above went above and beyond to prove that they are capable of handling a child. Both have successful careers, strong family surroundings, good support system, etc. Both of them had each child in a foster situation multiple times, went through multiple meetings and from what I remember, it still took almost 1.5-2 years till the adoption was approved.

The reason that is a problem is because it becomes mentally exhausting to go through that process, especially when you're a 2-3 months in and you still know at anytime the child could be taken from you, and not all adoptee families have the financial resources to go through the process if it takes that long.

The biggest thing that stood out to me was the mind-boggling amount of support needed from family, friends, co-workers, etc just to be able to manage everything.

To me that is a system working AGAINST adoption, and not for it, and adoption can be one of the most beautiful things to happen in someone's life.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:56 PM   #51
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I agree the system could be improved in a lot of ways, I just think it's important to remember that it isn't just the system that's complex.

There are many positive and wonderful stories where adoption was comparatively easy, and some where it seems needlessly hard. But the sad fact is that the numbers are so high and so many kids go unadopted because there are so few parents willing to take them.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:02 PM   #52
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Yeah, our outlook on adoption definitely needs to change.

I'm not sure if it is more widely accepted in other cultures, but I really think given our relative wealth as a society, we should be having higher adoption rates.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:07 PM   #53
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What country is considered the least racist?
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:10 PM   #54
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I agree the system could be improved in a lot of ways, I just think it's important to remember that it isn't just the system that's complex.

There are many positive and wonderful stories where adoption was comparatively easy, and some where it seems needlessly hard. But the sad fact is that the numbers are so high and so many kids go unadopted because there are so few parents willing to take them.
The situation I'm familiar with was definitely easier than the one's Azure is referring to. On one hand, the speed was impressive and was certainly the least disruptive option available to the children on short notice. On the other hand, I'm not entirely comfortable with the capacity of the new (single) mom to properly care for three foster children in addition to her own, young, biological child. Frankly, the decision was surprising based on my understanding from every other anecdote I've ever heard, but ultimately still better for the children. I suppose in that sense it was an absolute win.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:40 PM   #55
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I agree the system could be improved in a lot of ways, I just think it's important to remember that it isn't just the system that's complex.

There are many positive and wonderful stories where adoption was comparatively easy, and some where it seems needlessly hard. But the sad fact is that the numbers are so high and so many kids go unadopted because there are so few parents willing to take them.
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Yeah, our outlook on adoption definitely needs to change.

I'm not sure if it is more widely accepted in other cultures, but I really think given our relative wealth as a society, we should be having higher adoption rates.



Is the issue in Canada, that I've heard some people I know who considered adopting, that adoption in Canada is open? Meaning the relationship is known by all and the adopting parents are afraid of conflicts down the road? Looking for real parents, real parents demanding the child back etc...
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:09 PM   #56
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Is the issue in Canada, that I've heard some people I know who considered adopting, that adoption in Canada is open? Meaning the relationship is known by all and the adopting parents are afraid of conflicts down the road? Looking for real parents, real parents demanding the child back etc...
Define "known by all"? The names are accessible by the adoptive parents and the birth family, if that's what you mean.

But it doesn't necessarily mean much, how "open" the adoption is depends on the two parties involved. Some parents like having the birth mother in their child's lives. Some don't, and are under no obligation to do so or to allow contact. I haven't heard that it's a big deal or causes any real issues either way. "Real" parents demanding their child back is pretty much a myth, though, they have about as much say in the matter as you would demanding custody of your neighbour's child.

Maybe it's slightly more common in the US, but the nature of most adoptions in Canada means it would never be a consideration by the time the child is adopted. Keep in mind, there is a lot of time spent trying to ensure the child stays with their birth parents or extended family. By the time an "outsider" is an option, those options have usually failed.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:33 PM   #57
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I would say yes. you think those comments would have been made if it was a white person?
I 100% believe it was based on her being an indigenous person.

I don't think a person's race needs to be mentioned in an incident to make it racist.
Potentially, those comments made me think the woman was or had been a prostitute and working security, I've seen cops say some pretty awful things to white prostitutes. Those nurses should be fired though, regardless of their motivation.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:36 PM   #58
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I see what you are saying but someone doesn't always have to be spouting racial slurs for an incident to be considered racism. The treatment of indigenous people at this hospital in particular has been the subject of reports citing systemic racism.
You are correct that they don't need to be spouting racial slurs, but saying something ####ty to a person of color doesn't automatically make it racist either. This sounded way more like slut shaming than anything race related.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:43 PM   #59
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Assuming she's a prostitute or whatever other reason they had to slut shame her IS the racism. They wouldn't just assume someone with a sore stomach was a slut if she was white.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:47 PM   #60
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Assuming she's a prostitute or whatever other reason they had to slut shame her IS the racism. They wouldn't just assume someone with a sore stomach was a slut if she was white.
We don't know that anything was being assumed though. If she was a prostitute, they may have had other encounters with her, as many prostitutes have drug problems.
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