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Old 10-01-2020, 10:08 AM   #21
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:11 AM   #22
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This disconnect Canadians have with their prejudices is pretty startling when you come from somewhere else, even the US. I don't think it's that blatant and I think that's why people have trouble identifying it and dealing with it, it's these learned ideas that infect the way people think and act, even while telling themselves "I'm not racist." Some people have come to believe that as long as I don't outwardly hate someone because of their skin colour, I'm not racist. But how has their own upbringing influenced the way they think about others, even on a subconscious level? Or their parents' views?

One thing though, I love your overall message, but we don't use the term "oriental" for people anymore. I know you didn't mean anything by it, so I just wanted to let you know.
This conversation reminded me of one of the songs from Avenue Q.



As far as the overall topic of systemic racism in Canada. It is pretty damn obvious when you speak to the older generation in regards to indigenous people and problems. All we can do is try and educate those who have these views and try make the world a little more understanding.

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Old 10-01-2020, 10:32 AM   #23
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This disconnect Canadians have with their prejudices is pretty startling when you come from somewhere else, even the US. I don't think it's that blatant and I think that's why people have trouble identifying it and dealing with it, it's these learned ideas that infect the way people think and act, even while telling themselves "I'm not racist." Some people have come to believe that as long as I don't outwardly hate someone because of their skin colour, I'm not racist. But how has their own upbringing influenced the way they think about others, even on a subconscious level? Or their parents' views?

One thing though, I love your overall message, but we don't use the term "oriental" for people anymore. I know you didn't mean anything by it, so I just wanted to let you know.
Funny enough I did give pause when I wrote the word "oriental". Just like I did with "east-Indian". Perhaps we can extend that to the word "black" too... because really nobody is "black" per se.

And this actually touches on something else... there is a definite difference in HOW some words are used and whether that is racist or not. Context has a lot to do with how or if a word in and of itself is bad or not... and prejudice... and pre-conceived ideas of the deliverer/recipient/eaves-dropper.

A friend of mine, of non-Caucasian descent yet very much Canadian (despite been born outside of the country), has said that until you actually grow up and experience genuine prejudice as you age, you really have no idea what it's like. I had to agree, because indeed I have lived a privileged life (by comparison to many).

A family member, of non-Caucasian descent, actually gets upset when others WHO HAVE NOT ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED RACISM, decide that they should be incensed about a word, phrase, or situation. Very interesting perspectives.

So I would also caution the readers here to obviously be aware, sensitive, correct yourself/family as needed. BUT to also consider that there are other political agendas at play in our media that are using the racism card to further their goals and create division and violence.
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:34 AM   #24
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I would say yes. you think those comments would have been made if it was a white person?
I 100% believe it was based on her being an indigenous person.
This line of rhetorical questioning is often used in place of evidence that certain behaviour was racist in its intent. What reason do you have to not believe that anyone could be mistreated, regardless of their race?

The same thing was said following George Floyd's death, that this would never happen to a white person. That of course is not true. A white person could have been killed just as George Floyd was, the only difference is that we likely would not hear about it.

None of this is to excuse the abhorrent behaviour of these nurses. I just think it sets us on a dangerous path when we call things racist before we have any evidence of racism.
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:36 AM   #25
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I would say yes. you think those comments would have been made if it was a white person?
I 100% believe it was based on her being an indigenous person.

I don't think a person's race needs to be mentioned in an incident to make it racist.
I could see those same comments being made about a white person.

I agree that a person's race need not be mentioned to be racist, but I also don't think it's fair to be a mind reader. One could simply be an awful person but not a racist.
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:55 AM   #26
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None of this is to excuse the abhorrent behaviour of these nurses. I just think it sets us on a dangerous path when we call things racist before we have any evidence of racism.
What dangerous path is that?
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:00 AM   #27
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What dangerous path is that?
It's just another "slippery slope" argument.

Which I don't understand, is it because it makes people uncomfortable by labeling it racism? Calling it "just a few individuals who treat people badly" is an easier pill to swallow?
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:16 AM   #28
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It's just another "slippery slope" argument.

Which I don't understand, is it because it makes people uncomfortable by labeling it racism? Calling it "just a few individuals who treat people badly" is an easier pill to swallow?
You think calling people racist that are in fact not, is perfectly fine? Would you be okay if that happened to you?
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:20 AM   #29
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What dangerous path is that?
that would be the dangerous path to admitting racism and then doing something about it, there by making life slightly less easy and comfortable for us white folk and we cant be having that now.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:22 AM   #30
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The word systematic is also a slippery slope. Could the nurses be racist? Yes. Could the entire staff of that unit be racist? Yes. But systematic racism would mean that all aboriginals are treated poorly by the institution where they are not even admitted to the hospital at all or not treated.

Also, language seems to have it's own rules. From above, you can't call someone oriental but you can call them asian. You can call someone white, brown or black and you can't call someone red or yellow.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:30 AM   #31
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The word systematic is also a slippery slope. Could the nurses be racist? Yes. Could the entire staff of that unit be racist? Yes. But systematic racism would mean that all aboriginals are treated poorly by the institution where they are not even admitted to the hospital at all or not treated.

Also, language seems to have it's own rules. From above, you can't call someone oriental but you can call them asian. You can call someone white, brown or black and you can't call someone red or yellow.
Yes, that's the entire basis of language. You can call someone gay but you can't call them a homo. You can use the word c### far more freely in the UK than in America. Of course language has it's own rules, and of course those rules shift and change as society does and different regions have their own rules. Language is communication.

Systemic (not systematic) racism in the Quebec medical system or in a particular hospital/community also does not mean that indigenous people would not be treated or admitted, but it certainly would effect their treatment.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:35 AM   #32
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Sorry, systemic. I agree and an investigation has to be launched to see if all indigenous people have been treated poorly compared to others. Maybe it's a crap department that treats all scabby looking people like that. You know like a 16 year old white teenager could be there and the nurses are saying things like, you made bad choices getting pregnant at 16, hope you're proud of yourself.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:41 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
This disconnect Canadians have with their prejudices is pretty startling when you come from somewhere else, even the US. I don't think it's that blatant and I think that's why people have trouble identifying it and dealing with it, it's these learned ideas that infect the way people think and act, even while telling themselves "I'm not racist." Some people have come to believe that as long as I don't outwardly hate someone because of their skin colour, I'm not racist. But how has their own upbringing influenced the way they think about others, even on a subconscious level? Or their parents' views?

One thing though, I love your overall message, but we don't use the term "oriental" for people anymore. I know you didn't mean anything by it, so I just wanted to let you know.
While I agree for the most part, I think it’s important to acknowledge and differentiate from xenophobia.

Being fearful or feeling anger towards someone perceived to be from a different group or sect of society is, sadly, a very ingrained response. Plenty of studies to support the idea that ingroup/outgroup behaviour can be observed without any visible racial differences.

If you want to work on solving the issue, you need to get past the symptoms. Telling someone they have a belief in their racial superiority (racism), when they are acting according to their primitive threat response system (xenophobic) isn’t likely to achieve by-in or reflection.

There’s certainly a hell of a lot of overlap, but it’s an important distinction. “They’re taking our jobs!” and “But all lives matter” is better describes as xenophobic behaviour, and opinions can be changed through meaningful discussion and discovery.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:47 AM   #34
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You think calling people racist that are in fact not, is perfectly fine? Would you be okay if that happened to you?
Being called a racist doesn't automatically equate you to Proud Boys and white supremacists groups.

You can inadvertently say a racist statement without knowing it. Then someone brings it up and you learn from it and move on. You're not a racist forever haha...that is unless you choose to continue with said statement.

I surely wouldn't be offended if someone brought into question something I said as racist.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:48 AM   #35
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Structures of Indifference: An Indigenous Life and Death in a Canadian City is a history book that analyses racial prejudice within Canadian medical hospitals

" At the heart of this story is a thirty-four-hour period in September 2008. During that day and half, Brian Sinclair, a middle-aged, non-Status Anishinaabeg resident of Manitoba's capital city, arrived in the emergency room of the Health Sciences Centre, Winnipeg's major downtown hospital, was left untreated and unattended to, and ultimately died from an easily treatable infection."


another example of systemic injustice in health of Canadians is illustrated by Tuberculosis.

"In 2017, the rate of active tuberculosis in Canada was 4.9 per 100,000 population. The rate was highest among Canadian-born Indigenous Peoples (21.5 per 100,000 population)."
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-heal...veillance.html

Keep in mind TB is both a preventable and curable disease. One that has been almost entire eradicated in euro-canadian population.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:53 AM   #36
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The word systematic is also a slippery slope. Could the nurses be racist? Yes. Could the entire staff of that unit be racist? Yes. But systematic racism would mean that all aboriginals are treated poorly by the institution where they are not even admitted to the hospital at all or not treated.

Also, language seems to have it's own rules. From above, you can't call someone oriental but you can call them asian. You can call someone white, brown or black and you can't call someone red or yellow.
For Indigenous peoples it is systematic, mostly due to the fact that it is a two tier system, one that quantifiably does not provide the same level of care for First Nations as it does for Settlers.

for example

In 2016, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) determined the Government of Canada's approach to services for First Nations children was discriminatory.


"Jordan River Anderson (October 22, 1999 – February 2, 2005) is
a First Nations child from Norway House Cree Nation in Manitoba.
He was born with complex medical needs and because the province
of Manitoba and the federal government could not agree on who
would pay for his at-home care, he had to stay longer in the hospital
unnecessarily. Jordan passed at the age of 5, never having had the
chance to return to his family home, his First Nation, and his loved ones"

https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/156839.../1568396159824

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Old 10-01-2020, 12:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Looch City View Post
Being called a racist doesn't automatically equate you to Proud Boys and white supremacists groups.

You can inadvertently say a racist statement without knowing it. Then someone brings it up and you learn from it and move on. You're not a racist forever haha...that is unless you choose to continue with said statement.

I surely wouldn't be offended if someone brought into question something I said as racist.
This is true, we cant expect perfection at all times. Teach and learn and move forward. Especially in workplaces. Say you have worked with a guy for 10+ years. he's not a racist, he may have just said something inappropriate in this ever changing world.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:10 PM   #38
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Why not include Europe? I mean they still do monkey chants in Spain and a lot of the other countries.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:19 PM   #39
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I take referrals for both native and non native foster kids, the kids themselves are all pretty similar, complex behavioral issues around addiction and oppositional conduct disorder, ADD and the like.

Every native kid is labeled 'possibly fetal alcohol spectrum disorder' almost none of my white kids is labeled that (diagnosing FASD is complex and expensive) even though their backgrounds and behaviors are all but identical.

I have sat in a meeting and had to restrain one of my native kids as his social worker kept insisting he might be FASD even though he had no cognative issues that had been observed and his mother who had admitted extensive drug use was quite clear, and I quote, 'I have done a lot of stupid things as a mother but I never drank when I was pregnant' she was in tears as this dumb arse social worker kept going on about possible FASD issues in front of a room full of people, maybe 8 or 9.

Even if there had been issues that indicated FASD they treated the mother like it was no big deal to accuse her of giving her kid brain damage by drinking in front of a room full of people, it was a hideous day but in no way unusual
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:21 PM   #40
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Ever since I moved to Canada in the early 80's I was aware that there was embedded racism within Canada. It was far more obvious than most people realized and yet these people did not see or understand that what they said (or acted) as racist nor derogatory. It was SO embedded in their psyche and culture. I'm not talking upper class, I'm talking about the working "Joe" and his family... the middle and lower middle class. Their entitlement that THEY were absolute not racist was shocking, and they validated their words and actions by pointing to South Africa (large scale anti-apartheid riots, gatherings, etc... were occuring both in SA and "supportive" countries). The only difference, IMO, was that racism in SA had an official title (apartheid) whereas Canada and USA did not. In this example I am mostly referencing the obvious skin tone differences, however I as a child here in Calgary I had "yellow" and "brown" friends (oriental, Malay, east-Indian, etc...) that also experienced various degrees of prejudice. As there are people "of color" in my immediate family I still hear and see things often.

Although racism and prejudice has declined it's still present. It has changed too, and not necessarily for the better. Is there any difference between subtle racism/prejudice? or named segregation, or blatant in-your-face prejudice better or worse?
My wife who has dealt with racism all her life describes Canada as worse than the US, in that Canadians practice passive aggressive embedded racism and claim to be virtuous while doing it versus direct racism, and it's engrained in the psyche (people don't even realize it). Worse is how Canadians pat themselves on the back, heck we even re-elected a PM who thought that doing blackface on multiple occasions for kicks is ok, because he apologized when caught (truly Canadian).

Not a team player
Not a fit with the team or culture
Not up to the tasks

These are all words that I am sure we have seen, or even said ourselves before, but what makes a person not a team player? Sometimes that answer is racist in itself.

She has been flown in to interviews across the country at times, she gets seen for the first time in person in a 'family oriented' city (she uses her married Canadian sounding last name), and the person interviewing her looks her up and down, they do a quick 15 minute interview, and tell her the next day they are not proceeding as they feel she would not be able to fit in with the culture (actual reason).

Seriously. How are you supposed to take that in and tell her that things are good here?
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