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Old 06-17-2020, 12:52 PM   #41
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So people should be executed for something they "may" do?
Dude...
Absolutely, in some circumstances. If, for example, you've just left a bank heist with a hostage at gunpoint and a police officer is behind you and has a clear shot and kills you, saving your hostage, that's justified. It's clearly an execution for something you may do - i.e., kill your hostage. But I doubt anyone would say that cop deserves to be tried for murder.

Obviously that's not the situation here. I'm just pointing out that there have to be some exceptions considered here. There are plenty of other examples of situations that might arise where you want the fleeing suspect shot because there's a reasonable chance he "may" hurt other people if you let him go.
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Old 06-17-2020, 12:52 PM   #42
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Here I am thinking that whenever possible, the best option is to not shoot someone.

But instead the best idea is to go Minority Report on people and shoot em before they commit a crime? Eesh.
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Old 06-17-2020, 12:57 PM   #43
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Here I am thinking that whenever possible, the best option is to not shoot someone.

But instead the best idea is to go Minority Report on people and shoot em before they commit a crime? Eesh.
You can sprinkle some Judge Dredd in there to make it legit. Just gotta quickly declare them guilty first. Though having your weapon taken from you is a fire-able offense, so bad cop on that one...
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Old 06-17-2020, 12:58 PM   #44
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Lol should have just kept the other thread with all the wrassling talk if this one was going to be derailed right away.
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Old 06-17-2020, 12:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
Absolutely, in some circumstances. If, for example, you've just left a bank heist with a hostage at gunpoint and a police officer is behind you and has a clear shot and kills you, saving your hostage, that's justified. It's clearly an execution for something you may do - i.e., kill your hostage. But I doubt anyone would say that cop deserves to be tried for murder.

Obviously that's not the situation here. I'm just pointing out that there have to be some exceptions considered here. There are plenty of other examples of situations that might arise where you want the fleeing suspect shot because there's a reasonable chance he "may" hurt other people if you let him go.
That's kind of the point though.
I don't think people generally have an issue with cops using deadly force where there is an immediate, and real threat to themselves or another person. Sure that's something that "May" happen, but the real issue is the IMMEDIATE part.

Someone holding a gun to a hostage is an immediate threat. Go ahead and shoot him for what he may do.

Someone running away from a cop with a non-deadly weapon is not an immediate threat, nor is he any type of mortal threat at that point.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:00 PM   #46
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Shouldn't this discussion go into one of the policing threads?
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:01 PM   #47
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:05 PM   #48
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That's kind of the point though.
I don't think people generally have an issue with cops using deadly force where there is an immediate, and real threat to themselves or another person. Sure that's something that "May" happen, but the real issue is the IMMEDIATE part.

Someone holding a gun to a hostage is an immediate threat. Go ahead and shoot him for what he may do.

Someone running away from a cop with a non-deadly weapon is not an immediate threat, nor is he any type of mortal threat at that point.
This is fine, and I bet on reflection that JiriHrdina agrees with this, but my point is that you have to recognize that there is a real debate to be had about where we want to draw the line. There are going to be cases where the danger isn't quite so immediate, but is significant and compelling. For example, I might say, "it's totally reasonable for the police to shoot a fleeing suspect who has just stabbed someone and is carrying a knife, because there's a real chance he might stab someone else". Someone else might say, "you don't know how good a chance there is, though. Maybe he only stabbed this person over a personal dispute, and really poses no danger to anyone else". How much evidence do you need that the person running is dangerous before you shoot them? How dangerous do they need to be? If the guy doesn't have a weapon at all, but you have reason to believe he's running back for his car a couple of blocks away where he intends to hurt or kill his wife, do you shoot him? Some of these cases are harder than others.

The other half of it is that you have to recognize that wherever the line is drawn, we're going to have to tell Police officers that that's where the line is, and then leave it to them to make a judgment call. There is not really any way to do this without it ultimately being left to the judgment of the officer to try to make a good decision in the moment, which, given the circumstances, is going to be really, really hard to do.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:10 PM   #49
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None of this discussion surprises me given White Out's refusal to even demonstrate an understanding of systemic racism in the last thread. Not a lot of evidence of measured consideration on his part recently.

What is even the motivation for bringing the discussion of this event into this thread instead of in the massive thread dealing with police violence?

Pretty trolly sort of posting going on.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:15 PM   #50
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None of this discussion surprises me given White Out's refusal to even demonstrate an understanding of systemic racism in the last thread. Not a lot of evidence of measured consideration on his part recently.

What is even the motivation for bringing the discussion of this event into this thread instead of in the massive thread dealing with police violence?

Pretty trolly sort of posting going on.
Initially I didn't even realize this wasn't the other thread.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:17 PM   #51
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Garbage in, garbage out.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:44 PM   #52
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The white out should get a job working for donald trump because that made no sense at all.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz View Post
That's kind of the point though.
I don't think people generally have an issue with cops using deadly force where there is an immediate, and real threat to themselves or another person. Sure that's something that "May" happen, but the real issue is the IMMEDIATE part.

Someone holding a gun to a hostage is an immediate threat. Go ahead and shoot him for what he may do.

Someone running away from a cop with a non-deadly weapon is not an immediate threat, nor is he any type of mortal threat at that point.
The guy from 8 can't wait, which GGG had referred to previously, framed it best I think. He asked, in what circumstances would you accept a loved one being killed by the police? While there might be some disagreement as to what is an immediate threat, most situations would be pretty simple. Active shooter situation? Check. Rushing a police officer, whether armed or not (as in a suicide by police situation), I think so. Traffic violation? Not so much.
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Old 06-17-2020, 01:52 PM   #54
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So they should have let him run away? What happens if he comes back to his car later, still drunk and runs over someone? Then what?
This is why we should execute any and all potential criminals. Who's to say a stolen chocolate bar in the 5th grade won't result in a life of crime resulting in a serial rapist? Kill the children now so you can prevent these imaginary crimes we're making up in our head.

Also shouldn't be too hard to catch an inebriated man on the run, at least attempt that before shooting him...

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Old 06-17-2020, 01:56 PM   #55
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You're aware that police have guns as well, not just tazers? If he's already demonstrated the ability to steal a weapon and use it on a cop in that same interaction, why is it suddenly such a leap to suggest it wouldn't happen again?
Because he's running away....you know, sort of your argument in the first place.

I mean, if he was running towards the police, this is a different conversation. But he's not. He's running away. He's less of a threat every step he makes. There was no need to shoot in him in the back. I can't believe we need to explain this.
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:00 PM   #56
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Even there, in my judgment, he's probably not going to hurt a member of the public with it. He's basically just trying to get away from the police. I mean you can see their conversation with him, he's coherent, can form rational thoughts. He just really, really doesn't want to be arrested, which is certainly grounds for an assault charge or two, but the question is whether it was a justified use of force to shoot him while he tries to escape.

It used to be acceptable to shoot fleeing suspects who don't stop running away when you yell "freeze", or "stop or I'll shoot", but it isn't anymore. On the whole, while recognizing some of the potential issues it might cause that I identified when this was first brought up, and subject to certain exceptions, I'm fine with that change in procedure.
Yah, I certainly don't disagree with you, but I have no idea what training/ policy, procedure is for the Atlanta PD.
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:11 PM   #57
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Stuff from Bolton’s book starting to come out.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1273327116214509569

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President Trump asked Chinese President Xi Jinping to help him win the 2020 U.S. election, telling Xi during a summit dinner last year that increased agricultural purchases by Beijing from American farmers would aid his electoral prospects, according to a damning new account of life inside the Trump administration by former national security adviser John Bolton.
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During a one-on-one meeting at the June 2019 Group of 20 summit in Japan, Xi complained to Trump about China critics in the United States. But Bolton writes in a book scheduled to be released next week that “Trump immediately assumed Xi meant the Democrats. Trump said approvingly that there was great hostility among the Democrats.
“He then, stunningly, turned the conversation to the coming U.S. presidential election, alluding to China’s economic capability to affect the ongoing campaigns, pleading with Xi to ensure he’d win,” Bolton writes. “He stressed the importance of farmers, and increased Chinese purchases of soybeans and wheat in the electoral outcome. I would print Trump’s exact words but the government’s prepublication review process has decided otherwise.”
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The request for electoral assistance from Xi is one of many instances described by Bolton in which Trump seeks favors or approval from authoritarian leaders. Many of those same leaders were also happy to take advantage of the U.S. president and attempt to manipulate him, Bolton writes, often through simplistic appeals to his various obsessions.
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:23 PM   #58
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:33 PM   #59
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Pro concentration camps in China as well

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Beijing’s repression of its Uighur citizens also proceeded apace. Trump asked me at the 2018 White House Christmas dinner why we were considering sanctioning China over its treatment of the Uighurs, a largely Muslim people who live primarily in China’s northwest Xinjiang Province.

At the opening dinner of the Osaka G-20 meeting in June 2019, with only interpreters present, Xi had explained to Trump why he was basically building concentration camps in Xinjiang. According to our interpreter, Trump said that Xi should go ahead with building the camps, which Trump thought was exactly the right thing to do. The National Security Council’s top Asia staffer, Matthew Pottinger, told me that Trump said something very similar during his November 2017 trip to China.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/john-bo...cy-11592419564
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:39 PM   #60
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There were so many innocent bystanders, another big issue that isn't being raised here is, what if this cop missed while shooting this guy? What if they hit and killed an innocent bystander.

There is a reason why cops in most places are no longer allowed to go on high speed pursuits as it puts the general public in danger. This trigger happy ######bag not only killed a drunk dude who was running away, but put everyone in the area in danger by shooting his gun for no good reason.

If this dude ran away and they let him go and impound his car, literally no one gets killed or even has the chance of being seriously injured.


This cop pulling his gun put not only the suspect in danger, but everyone around them.
I wish I hadn’t but I finally watched the wide angle video of the shooting. He’s right in front of an occupied car!! The whole sequence is unreal. Nothing about it was acceptable.

Also, who nukes their own thread with a post like that?
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