Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 10-17-2020, 12:15 PM   #2661
topfiverecords
Franchise Player
 
topfiverecords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: randomrectangleland
Exp:
Default

There’s different opinions and opposing ideas but then there’s spreading fake news as fact and off their rocker flat earth level views. Not to mention the raised by wolves Free-Dumb stuff.
topfiverecords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 12:15 PM   #2662
Cecil Terwilliger
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
 
Cecil Terwilliger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
Exp:
Default

I think there’s two separate issues that a lot of us, myself included, have a tendency to conflate.

Most people posting here give me the impression they believe in wearing masks as often as possible when in public, won’t attend large parties or gatherings, believe in social distancing etc. You know, science.

That includes doing what the experts are telling you because they are right and know better.


Where opinions differ is on the level of “normal” activity that falls outside of the above risky spread activities and can be done relatively safely with proper precautions (assuming everyone follows the precautions).

What makes this tricky is that the one group of anti safety, anti mask, don’t take muh freedom morons, happen to agree with and get lumped in with the people who are safe but more active.

This causes an unfair grouping of people together who don’t really have much in common, other than they both are living closer to the old normal than people who are slightly more cautious and stay home more.

When really, we should all team up against the anti mask, anti science #######s because they are the ones who are putting us all at danger. It’s just hard sometimes to separate out who is who when stress levels are so high and our experience with pandemics is pretty low. Unless you’re like 120 years old.


And one last thing. I think people tend to talk tough but when they’re affected, all of a sudden COVID is no big deal. I know a family who all got sick, probably a cold, and none of them took it seriously at all. No isolating, no testing, no keeping kids home, no staying home from work etc. They were all pro social distancing, pro masks, pro stay home when it was other people they were complaining about. But when they got symptoms that justified extra caution? No way, they know it’s a cold and they’re not gonna inconvenience themselves to protect others. After all, if it’s a cold, they have nothing to worry about and it if was COVID, what do they care, they already have it.

That type of selfish thinking is what gets us in trouble. Not disagreements over the right level of travel restrictions and quarantine days.

Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 10-17-2020 at 12:18 PM.
Cecil Terwilliger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Cecil Terwilliger For This Useful Post:
Old 10-17-2020, 12:16 PM   #2663
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Varying opinions from all whacks of life are a good thing so long as minds remain largely open. There is the problem of “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” and the dunning-kruger effect, which the poster in question regularly falls into, but I wouldn’t say they should be ignored, just questioned and corrected. Even if it has no effect on their position, it may help others who unwittingly take their position as well reasoned or informed.

Some people have a problem where they believe the first time they’ve heard of something is the first time it’s been spoken (as we just saw) or that a select bit of information can be applied broadly (ie this happened there, so if it happened here it would be the same) without considering the massive number of variables that impact the result.

Especially for the pandemic, we are having this conversation with such select, limited, and evolving information that any conclusions (whether based on today on when reviewing things in hindsight) should be very very soft conclusions. The amount of anger and assuredness from some posters is completely ridiculous given how little they know (and how little any of us know). This pandemic should be humbling for most people, but it doesn’t seem to be the case.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 03:57 PM   #2664
Corral
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Corral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Stampede Grounds
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Varying opinions from all whacks of life are a good thing so long as minds remain largely open. There is the problem of ďa little knowledge is a dangerous thingĒ and the dunning-kruger effect, which the poster in question regularly falls into, but I wouldnít say they should be ignored, just questioned and corrected. Even if it has no effect on their position, it may help others who unwittingly take their position as well reasoned or informed.

Some people have a problem where they believe the first time theyíve heard of something is the first time itís been spoken (as we just saw) or that a select bit of information can be applied broadly (ie this happened there, so if it happened here it would be the same) without considering the massive number of variables that impact the result.

Especially for the pandemic, we are having this conversation with such select, limited, and evolving information that any conclusions (whether based on today on when reviewing things in hindsight) should be very very soft conclusions. The amount of anger and assuredness from some posters is completely ridiculous given how little they know (and how little any of us know). This pandemic should be humbling for most people, but it doesnít seem to be the case.

Humbling for most people? Honest question. Why?

One fact which continues to dog pleas to take COVID seriously is the extremely low infection rate relative to overall population numbers and the large numbers who recover and say that they feel fine.

Now the disproportionate distribution of infection, its discriminatory impact on certain groups and unequal access to care .... now agreed those are humbling facts that should make us shameful of how public power and money is allocated in our society.

But this ongoing disgust at how too many people dont take COVID seriously is ridiculous. What do you expect in a society that has long championed individualism over communitarian values? Some of the posters here need to look in the mirror based on the political views Iíve read from them over the years
Corral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 04:48 PM   #2665
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corral View Post
Humbling for most people? Honest question. Why?

One fact which continues to dog pleas to take COVID seriously is the extremely low infection rate relative to overall population numbers and the large numbers who recover and say that they feel fine.

Now the disproportionate distribution of infection, its discriminatory impact on certain groups and unequal access to care .... now agreed those are humbling facts that should make us shameful of how public power and money is allocated in our society.

But this ongoing disgust at how too many people dont take COVID seriously is ridiculous. What do you expect in a society that has long championed individualism over communitarian values? Some of the posters here need to look in the mirror based on the political views I’ve read from them over the years
Humbling in that we do not know what we do not know, and won’t for some time yet.

It’s the Internet, so of course everyone is an expert on everything. Most things well established you can collect enough information to make a reasonable judgement on, even if you’ll fall far short of the experts. But this? Even the experts are learning, realising mistakes and successes in real time, and will be for many more months if not years.

So as a layman, which everyone here is, it should humble you enough to have very little confidence in any conclusion. Because there’s a good chance you’re wrong, and if you’re right, there’s an even better chance you don’t even know if or why you’re right.

That’s why when someone gets upset over what was done or how it was done, some people ask “show us the alternative you’d prefer.” Because that’s the information we have to go on, and some posters think they have a better idea of how to handle the pandemic or recover the economy, based on almost nothing at all, than the people whose job it is to figure that out.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 10-17-2020, 08:56 PM   #2666
MoneyGuy
Franchise Player
 
MoneyGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

My city has no mask requirement now. It kicks in if/when we reach hit watch-list territory, which I don’t doubt we will eventually. Our numbers are currently about two-thirds of that trigger point.

Now I’m getting someone saying that masks may be causing COVID cases citing Edmonton, Calgary and St. Albert all with high numbers and all with mask requirements. My position is masks are NOT causing virus cases and there are other factors.
MoneyGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 09:05 PM   #2667
Cali Panthers Fan
Franchise Player
 
Cali Panthers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyGuy View Post
My city has no mask requirement now. It kicks in if/when we reach hit watch-list territory, which I donít doubt we will eventually. Our numbers are currently about two-thirds of that trigger point.

Now Iím getting someone saying that masks may be causing COVID cases citing Edmonton, Calgary and St. Albert all with high numbers and all with mask requirements. My position is masks are NOT causing virus cases and there are other factors.
Whoever, that is, they are an idiot. You may feel free to ignore anything else they say on the matter.

BTW, we don't have a mask requirement down here either. Yesterday alone we had over 4000 new cases of COVID in Florida. A lack of masks leads to a lot more cases then if you have masks.


Jesus H. ####ing Christ. I don't know what it takes to get simple messages across to idiots. Is there any hope for our species? Is self-preservation just not in our DNA any longer?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResAlien View Post
If we can't fall in love with replaceable bottom 6 players then the terrorists have won.
Cali Panthers Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cali Panthers Fan For This Useful Post:
Old 10-18-2020, 08:25 AM   #2668
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Six months into the pandemic, I'd hazard that most Albertans don't know a single person who has suffered serious health effects from covid. Given that, the level of public compliance with social distancing measures is impressive, and reason for optimism about social cohesion, not pessimism.

Compared to most of the Northern Hemisphere, Alberta is doing remarkably well*. Public policy, and public compliance with that policy, has been effective at keeping infections and hospitalizations far lower than experts had projected. If you gave Alberta health authorities in April a glimpse into the future, and they saw the hospitalization rate now in October, they'd be running around high-fiving one another.

It's natural for people to look for someone to blame for a public crisis like this. Politicians. Bureaucrats. 'Morons of the pandemic.' Neighbours and colleagues. But given how well we're handling this, and how big of a factor simple luck has played in dramatically varying covid death rates, there doesn't seem much point in playing the blame game.

* Death rate per 100,000

Alberta: 7
Germany: 12
Ontario: 21
Montana: 22
Ireland: 37
California: 43
France: 49
Italy: 60
UK: 65
Quebec: 71
Florida: 73
Belgium: 90
New Jersey: 182
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 10-18-2020, 09:05 AM   #2669
stampsx2
First Line Centre
 
stampsx2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Random question for anybody that might have reliable info. Does Covid travel on food? What i mean is, say a cook is making your hamburger or wings at a pub and isn’t feeling well. Say the’ve had the sniffles and covid somehow makes it onto your burger. What happens then? Can you somehow get this thing through food or utensils?

Similar sort of thing at grocery stores where everyone has to check multiple tomatos before buying.

I realize i’m getting into a germophobic area now but still have the question anyway.
stampsx2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 09:13 AM   #2670
#-3
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Exp:
Default

/\

Agreed, the UPC may hold fantastically childish and throughly debunked economic theories, and fill their vision of the future with this wishful thinking the us and only us should be the privileged ones to continue extracting resources. But they have avoided the trap of ignoring experts most extreme right wing parties have durring this whole pandemic. They've done a good job.
#-3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 09:15 AM   #2671
Cowboy89
#1 Goaltender
 
Cowboy89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: NW Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post
I think thereís two separate issues that a lot of us, myself included, have a tendency to conflate.

Most people posting here give me the impression they believe in wearing masks as often as possible when in public, wonít attend large parties or gatherings, believe in social distancing etc. You know, science.

That includes doing what the experts are telling you because they are right and know better.


Where opinions differ is on the level of ďnormalĒ activity that falls outside of the above risky spread activities and can be done relatively safely with proper precautions (assuming everyone follows the precautions).

What makes this tricky is that the one group of anti safety, anti mask, donít take muh freedom morons, happen to agree with and get lumped in with the people who are safe but more active.

This causes an unfair grouping of people together who donít really have much in common, other than they both are living closer to the old normal than people who are slightly more cautious and stay home more.

When really, we should all team up against the anti mask, anti science #######s because they are the ones who are putting us all at danger. Itís just hard sometimes to separate out who is who when stress levels are so high and our experience with pandemics is pretty low. Unless youíre like 120 years old.


And one last thing. I think people tend to talk tough but when theyíre affected, all of a sudden COVID is no big deal. I know a family who all got sick, probably a cold, and none of them took it seriously at all. No isolating, no testing, no keeping kids home, no staying home from work etc. They were all pro social distancing, pro masks, pro stay home when it was other people they were complaining about. But when they got symptoms that justified extra caution? No way, they know itís a cold and theyíre not gonna inconvenience themselves to protect others. After all, if itís a cold, they have nothing to worry about and it if was COVID, what do they care, they already have it.

That type of selfish thinking is what gets us in trouble. Not disagreements over the right level of travel restrictions and quarantine days.
I like this post. It captures the disagreement nicely. I don't see too many people in this thread calling COVID a hoax, it's only really a discussion about what restrictions should be in place with the reality being that we are trading livelihoods for lives and we're debating that exchange ratio with the facts and arguments. Honestly everyone in this thread is coming at this discussion with the good intentions of wanting to see the world in the best place it can be. No one is popping off their pillows every morning and trying to be a dick, just inserting their own perspective to the debate. Unfortunately there's no option available to save everyone and keep society fully intact.
Cowboy89 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cowboy89 For This Useful Post:
Old 10-18-2020, 09:16 AM   #2672
#-3
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stampsx2 View Post
Random question for anybody that might have reliable info. Does Covid travel on food? What i mean is, say a cook is making your hamburger or wings at a pub and isnít feeling well. Say theíve had the sniffles and covid somehow makes it onto your burger. What happens then? Can you somehow get this thing through food or utensils?

Similar sort of thing at grocery stores where everyone has to check multiple tomatos before buying.

I realize iím getting into a germophobic area now but still have the question anyway.
I think the answer you would get is that it can travel on anything, but current data indicates airborne is the primary mode of transmission for most new infections. So it's not likely many people are getting it that way.
#-3 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to #-3 For This Useful Post:
Old 10-18-2020, 09:26 AM   #2673
Regorium
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Seriously, every day I find optimism in our numbers. We've basically reopened the entire economy, and yet there's still only 11 people in ICU, and our death rate hasn't appreciably risen. I see basically 100% mask compliance at grocery stores and other public places.

I don't think we could have done any better than we have been.
Regorium is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Regorium For This Useful Post:
Old 10-18-2020, 09:48 AM   #2674
Bill Bumface
My face is a bum!
 
Bill Bumface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stampsx2 View Post
Random question for anybody that might have reliable info. Does Covid travel on food? What i mean is, say a cook is making your hamburger or wings at a pub and isnít feeling well. Say theíve had the sniffles and covid somehow makes it onto your burger. What happens then? Can you somehow get this thing through food or utensils?

Similar sort of thing at grocery stores where everyone has to check multiple tomatos before buying.

I realize iím getting into a germophobic area now but still have the question anyway.
I saw a piece on this much earlier in the pandemic, and the info at the time said the viral load to your respiratory system would be really low in this case, as most would make it in your digestive system and get killed off by digestive fluids right away.
Bill Bumface is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bill Bumface For This Useful Post:
Old 10-18-2020, 02:25 PM   #2675
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regorium View Post
Seriously, every day I find optimism in our numbers. We've basically reopened the entire economy, and yet there's still only 11 people in ICU, and our death rate hasn't appreciably risen. I see basically 100% mask compliance at grocery stores and other public places.

I don't think we could have done any better than we have been.
ICU lags case by two weeks and deaths by 3. So with the recent case increase we should see the ICU numbers jump up this week and deaths a week or so later.

I agree though that things have gone pretty well, we arenít even close to out of the woods yet.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 03:52 PM   #2676
JohnnyB
Franchise Player
 
JohnnyB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
Exp:
Default

Access to a vaccine being significantly broadened now in China. It's open to the public in some cities. I'm hearing of people flying back just to get the vaccine. It's also being offered free in some cases to Chinese students going overseas.
__________________

"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"

"I'd do it for sure. I'd be lining up to stab kids with forks." - OMG!WTF!
JohnnyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 04:42 PM   #2677
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
Access to a vaccine being significantly broadened now in China. It's open to the public in some cities. I'm hearing of people flying back just to get the vaccine. It's also being offered free in some cases to Chinese students going overseas.
Is there any public information on the anticipated effectiveness of the Vaccine?
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 05:02 PM   #2678
opendoor
#1 Goaltender
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Is there any public information on the anticipated effectiveness of the Vaccine?
None of China's vaccines have finished phase 3 trials yet, so there isn't really any data. Like most of the leading candidates, there were antibody responses in their phase 1/2 trials, but whether that actually results in effective protections is still unknown. But I guess they figure it's probably safe enough, so why not? Though if the spread really is as low as is reported in China (2,000 cases in the last 3 months), it seems like a poor gamble to take a COVID vaccine before phase 3 data is available.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 05:22 PM   #2679
Cecil Terwilliger
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
 
Cecil Terwilliger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
Exp:
Default

It’s China. Making it available to the public is their phase 3. You think Winnie the Pooh is taking it? He’s waiting for a safe vaccine like the rest of us.
Cecil Terwilliger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2020, 08:44 PM   #2680
JohnnyB
Franchise Player
 
JohnnyB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Is there any public information on the anticipated effectiveness of the Vaccine?
fwiw

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN26S0FK

Quote:
In a Phase 1 trial of 191 healthy participants aged between 18 and 59, vaccination with the groupís experimental shot showed no severe adverse reactions, its researchers said on Tuesday in a paper posted on medRxiv preprint server ahead of peer review.
Quote:
China has inoculated hundreds of thousands of essential workers and other groups considered at high risk with other vaccines, even as clinical trials had not been fully completed, raising safety concerns among experts.
Quote:
China has at least four experimental vaccines in the final stage of clinical trials.
__________________

"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"

"I'd do it for sure. I'd be lining up to stab kids with forks." - OMG!WTF!
JohnnyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:56 AM.

Calgary Flames
2019-20




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016