Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 12-26-2018, 03:26 PM   #21
White Out 403
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
If that were the next step, youíd have a point.

It wonít be.

So you donít.
They're both violations of our freedom. One is just a little more bolder than the other
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:29 PM   #22
btimbit
Franchise Player
 
btimbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

This is one of those things that sounds fine in theory, but at the end of the day I don't trust it to be done fairly and evenly.

And the "Well if you're not doing anything wrong what do you have to hide" argument is a total cop out excuse to willingly give up freedoms, lets not even go there
btimbit is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to btimbit For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:30 PM   #23
Snuffleupagus
First Line Centre
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
I donít understand how people can be opposed to a procedure that has empirical evidence demonstrating that it contributes to saving lives.
Would you be ok if the cops confiscated your cell phone to see if you were accessing it while driving? after all, more people die that way now days than drinking and driving.
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Snuffleupagus For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:31 PM   #24
btimbit
Franchise Player
 
btimbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
Would you be ok if the cops confiscated your cell phone to see if you were accessing it while driving? after all, more people die that way now days than drinking and driving.
Might as well search every single vehicle that goes through a checkstop while they're at it, just in case someone has illegal drugs or guns
btimbit is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to btimbit For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:32 PM   #25
Barnet Flame
First Line Centre
 
Barnet Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Barnet - North London
Exp:
Default

No it isnít a little bolder.

Its an overreaction to a pretty benign issue that demonstrably saves lives.

Just as it has done in other countries where people just got on with it and didnít cry about their freedom being stripped away because they had to blow into a tube, I donít know, perhaps never?

It works effectively both as a detective control and a preventative control.
Barnet Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:33 PM   #26
CaptainYooh
#1 Goaltender
 
CaptainYooh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btimbit View Post
Might as well search every single vehicle that goes through a checkstop while they're at it, just in case someone has illegal drugs or guns
Might as well check all cell phones for child porn while you're at it. You know, to protect the children.
__________________
"An idea is always a generalization, and generalization is a property of thinking. To generalize means to think." Georg Hegel, Philosopher

ďTo generalize is to be an idiot.Ē William Blake, Writer
CaptainYooh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:34 PM   #27
Weitz
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

How many people are dying these days from drinking and driving? How many are innocent, ie not the driver?
Weitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:34 PM   #28
White Out 403
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
No it isnít a little bolder.

Its an overreaction to a pretty benign issue that demonstrably saves lives.

Just as it has done in other countries where people just got on with it and didnít cry about their freedom being stripped away because they had to blow into a tube, I donít know, perhaps never?

It works effectively both as a detective control and a preventative control.
I don't think it's a benign issue to watch freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed in the charter being removed. Also, I don't view it as a stretch to have this used by bad cops to harass and intimidate people they view as trouble makers. The naive view that this will be narrow in scope and never be abused is comical. It WILL lead to overreach.
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to White Out 403 For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:35 PM   #29
Zethrynn
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Exp:
Default

Just make it part of the vehicles safety system and have every vehicle have blow boxes. Wouldn’t need check stops and people wouldn’t have their rights infringed.
Zethrynn is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Zethrynn For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:36 PM   #30
Barnet Flame
First Line Centre
 
Barnet Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Barnet - North London
Exp:
Default

Actually, cellphone use in cars is a major problem. Iíd love to see that dealt with more proactively.

Iím not sure how that can be done, but no, that would not be practical.

As for random breathalysers it is very easy to detect where the process is being abused.
Barnet Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:37 PM   #31
White Out 403
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
Actually, cellphone use in cars is a major problem. Iíd love to see that dealt with more proactively.

Iím not sure how that can be done, but no, that would not be practical.

As for random breathalysers it is very easy to detect where the process is being abused.
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:39 PM   #32
btimbit
Franchise Player
 
btimbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

To me this is in the same scope as US border agents searching your phone without needing probable cause. Sure I have nothing to hide and nothing bad is going to come from it, but that's not the point
btimbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:41 PM   #33
Snuffleupagus
First Line Centre
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
I don't think it's a benign issue to watch freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed in the charter being removed. Also, I don't view it as a stretch to have this used by bad cops to harass and intimidate people they view as trouble makers. The naive view that this will be narrow in scope and never be abused is comical. It WILL lead to overreach.
There are also false positives, a friend of mine held up a wedding(was the best man with the ring) for 45 minutes once because he blew amber on one consumed beer.

I hope this gets slaughtered in the courts
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:43 PM   #34
Barnet Flame
First Line Centre
 
Barnet Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Barnet - North London
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
I don't think it's a benign issue to watch freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed in the charter being removed. Also, I don't view it as a stretch to have this used by bad cops to harass and intimidate people they view as trouble makers. The naive view that this will be narrow in scope and never be abused is comical. It WILL lead to overreach.


It would be extremely easy to detect where bad cops are abusing it by harassing individuals. Clearly, this is an emotive issue so definitely there needs to be commensurate controls accompanying the procedure.

However, we are talking about a policy that has empirical evidence demonstrating that it results in changes in behaviour that has saved significant numbers of lives. And in countries that can hardly be labelled as antagonistic toward individual liberty.
Barnet Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:45 PM   #35
White Out 403
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
It would be extremely easy to detect where bad cops are abusing it by harassing individuals. Clearly, this is an emotive issue so definitely there needs to be commensurate controls accompanying the procedure.

However, we are talking about a policy that has empirical evidence demonstrating that it results in changes in behaviour that has saved significant numbers of lives. And in countries that can hardly be labelled as antagonistic toward individual liberty.
You keep saying this like it matters. It doesn't. We are discussing measure that violates the Charter. The good it supposedly will do is not what's being weighed here. Either something is a violation of our rights or it isn't. Full stop.
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to White Out 403 For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:47 PM   #36
Barnet Flame
First Line Centre
 
Barnet Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Barnet - North London
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post


It is extraordinarily easy to implement monitoring and investigating of anomalies in cases of cops abusing their powers.

A nanosecond of analysis on an IDEA spreadsheet would demonstrate that.
Barnet Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:47 PM   #37
White Out 403
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
It would be extremely easy to detect where bad cops are abusing it by harassing individuals. Clearly, this is an emotive issue so definitely there needs to be commensurate controls accompanying the procedure.
There's no other way to describe this post other than naive.
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:50 PM   #38
CaptainYooh
#1 Goaltender
 
CaptainYooh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

This debate is as old as checkstops. Same old arguments defending them and opposing them. In modern liberal democracies, personal freedoms are steadily retreating and general public just eats governments' explanations and assurances of why it's good for "the People", as a group, rather than individuals.

In a true democracy, people must be trusted to do the right thing even understanding that they don't do the right thing sometimes. This is the foundation of a true democracy. There are literally thousands of examples of how various violations of personal freedoms could lead to prevention of crime, death, medical distress, property damage, economic hardship etc. Yet, each and every inch given up in the name of those benefits deteriorates a democratic society further towards state-control.
__________________
"An idea is always a generalization, and generalization is a property of thinking. To generalize means to think." Georg Hegel, Philosopher

ďTo generalize is to be an idiot.Ē William Blake, Writer
CaptainYooh is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to CaptainYooh For This Useful Post:
Old 12-26-2018, 03:53 PM   #39
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
You keep saying this like it matters. It doesn't. We are discussing measure that violates the Charter. The good it supposedly will do is not what's being weighed here. Either something is a violation of our rights or it isn't. Full stop.
If youíre only interested in discussing one side of the issue, then youíre incapable of discussing the issue in a meaningful way.

You should absolutely be weighing the good vs the bad. Stop acting like this issue contains no nuance.

As a solution that balances both the protection of our rights and goes a distance to protect from drunk drivers, I would be interested in the previously mentioned mandatory-breathalysers in every vehicle.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 03:54 PM   #40
White Out 403
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
If youíre only interested in discussing one side of the issue, then youíre incapable of discussing the issue in a meaningful way.

You should absolutely be weighing the good vs the bad. Stop acting like this issue contains no nuance.
The debate is if this is a violation of our charter rights. The benefit has nothing to do with that debate. That's not a "side".
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 AM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016