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Old 08-15-2018, 10:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Where business owners spend less on those items(if they hypothetically did), their employees will spend more, and in more places. That actually grows the economy.
This "theoretical" kind of projection is nice and all, but why not just work with what we have for evidence. 25,000 jobs gone in the service sector and small business is saying it's directly due to the increased wage costs. And yeah, the economy has grown in Alberta and that is due to the increased price of oil.

To me it's pretty obvious. We haven't gotten off the oil and gas rollercoaster despite claims that this was going to happen. The minimum wage has acted a drag to small business, which was predicted by virtually everyone.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:16 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Slava View Post
This "theoretical" kind of projection is nice and all, but why not just work with what we have for evidence. 25,000 jobs gone in the service sector and small business is saying it's directly due to the increased wage costs. And yeah, the economy has grown in Alberta and that is due to the increased price of oil.
Calgary isnít the only city to have increased the minimum wage in the province, yet the results havenít been the same across the province. Letís go with what we know, or can fairly reasonably assume, small business owners would probably prefer to not see an increase to their labour costs even if they could afford it.

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To me it's pretty obvious. We haven't gotten off the oil and gas rollercoaster despite claims that this was going to happen. The minimum wage has acted a drag to small business, which was predicted by virtually everyone.
You do realize that small businesses arenít the only employers who pay minimum wage right?
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Calgary isnít the only city to have increased the minimum wage in the province, yet the results havenít been the same across the province. Letís go with what we know, or can fairly reasonably assume, small business owners would probably prefer to not see an increase to their labour costs even if they could afford it.



You do realize that small businesses arenít the only employers who pay minimum wage right?
Sure, but the majority of the minimum wage jobs are in the service industry,and that is where we are seeing the significant job losses. It's directly attributable to the increased wages and honestly, was entirely predictable. Now that the evidence is coming to bear though, you seem to want to shrug it off or try to attribute it to other factors?

It's intellectual dishonesty at it's finest. The wages were going to increase and people told them that this will result in job loss. The increase goes through, jobs are lost and now the plan is to say "it shouldn't work that way" or "the small business just doesn't want to eat it" and we're cool with that?
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:05 AM   #44
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I was wondering if anyone has looked at the actual real increase in spending power with the minimum wage increase.


I've looked at my bills, celluar, utilities, groceries, gas, etc etc and noticed in creases across the board, and I'm wondering about the effects on the people that had the jump in wage and if its actually outstripped increases, or if they're in the same boat?
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:35 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Slava View Post
Sure, but the majority of the minimum wage jobs are in the service industry,and that is where we are seeing the significant job losses. It's directly attributable to the increased wages and honestly, was entirely predictable. Now that the evidence is coming to bear though, you seem to want to shrug it off or try to attribute it to other factors?

It's intellectual dishonesty at it's finest. The wages were going to increase and people told them that this will result in job loss. The increase goes through, jobs are lost and now the plan is to say "it shouldn't work that way" or "the small business just doesn't want to eat it" and we're cool with that?
But 25,7000 jobs lost weren't minimum wage jobs. That number is the entire service sector, there were more jobs lost in Finance and Insurance than there were in Accommodations and Food Service, and I don't believe a minimum wage hike is affecting the Finance industry very much. There is also the effect that as better jobs become available, especially in the good-producing sector than people will leave the lower paying positions to move up.

I am not trying to argue that the minimum wage has had no effect, you can tell with rising prices at restaurants and lower staffing levels that it has. How much the minimum wage is directly attributable to job losses is a lot harder to define. Maybe for the 8,300 lost in the A&F industry, but I think its much more of a stretch for the whole service sector.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
I find it interesting that you classify an employee earning the same pay for less hours of work as ďirrelevantĒ or having ďno gainĒ.
I was just being consistent with the purely economic analysis that you were. You didn't mention anything about other types of utility that may be gained from having more free time. It's certainly possible that some individuals might prefer working fewer hours to earn a similar amount, but in my experience, most hard working people would prefer to work full time hours - especially in an environment where their expenses are continually increasing. There's a reason these people are categorized as involuntary part-time.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
If server hours are cut, meaning there are less servers on every shift, but the number of customers remains the same would you consider it be unreasonable to assume that individual tips/hour worked would actually increase for the staff?
Likely to some extent, but there is a maximum amount of tables one can serve before the quality of service declines. With the decrease in discretionary consumer spending we've seen, the number of customers has certainly declined so it's probably a wash overall.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
That [inflation] is happening regardless of whether or not the minimum wage is increased, so if you earn minimum wage and it isnít being increased, youíre already falling behind.
While it's true that inflation is expected in an expansionary economic environment and is often treated as a constant in financial modelling, the rate of inflation is dependent on a many micro factors, one of which is the cost of labour. When you increase minimum wage beyond the rate of inflation as we've seen, it affects consumer pricing in sectors heavily reliant on unskilled labour. Over the past few years in Alberta, we've seen inflation levels higher than what would be expected in a recessionary environment based on historical precedent. If you examine CPI numbers in detail, you can see fairly high inflation figures in the retail and consumer goods and restaurant food segments when compared with other jurisdictions and the national average. This undue inflation works to erode a portion of the gains that minimum wage earners might accrue from the recent increase.

Also, the previous policy linked minimum wage increases with CPI, so nobody was 'falling behind,' real wages were simply constant.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
I canít wait
Great, well let's work through a real world example from this Herald article:
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A hostess, three servers and a manager would usually be on hand to serve that many people, but on Monday, the restaurant was down to two servers and a manager.
So pre-minimum wage increase, let's assume we have a hostess making $10.20/hr, three waiters at $9.20hr plus an additional $9.20 in tips, and a manager making $25/hr. That equates to total aggregate earnings of $2,104 for all employees over a 40 hour week.

Today we only have two servers making $13.60/hr, and let's assume the amount of tips stays the same but is split in two rather than three, so $13.80/hr in tips. Adding in the manager, we are still at $2,104 in gross weekly earnings.

We now have two people who are clearly better off and two others that are no longer working. The amount of take home pay has remained the exact same. All we've done is shift things around - is this a better scenario? The bottom line is the fact that a minimum wage increase does not magically increase the amount of pay available to workers, only capital investment and economic growth can do that.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:08 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Slava View Post
It's intellectual dishonesty at it's finest. The wages were going to increase and people told them that this will result in job loss. The increase goes through, jobs are lost and now the plan is to say "it shouldn't work that way" or "the small business just doesn't want to eat it" and we're cool with that?
Iíd argue itís no more intellectually dishonest than cherry picking data from one region and using that as the basis for your argument that the increase to the minimum wage was the root cause of the job losses. If that were the case we wouldnít have seen a overall increase in employment in that industry across the province. Itís about as silly as saying the jobs lost in the finance industry were also a result of the minimum wage increase.

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Originally Posted by Zarley View Post
I was just being consistent with the purely economic analysis that you were. You didn't mention anything about other types of utility that may be gained from having more free time. It's certainly possible that some individuals might prefer working fewer hours to earn a similar amount, but in my experience, most hard working people would prefer to work full time hours - especially in an environment where their expenses are continually increasing. There's a reason these people are categorized as involuntary part-time.
Less work for the same pay plays a roll in the overall economics. I didnít think that needed clarification.

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Also, the previous policy linked minimum wage increases with CPI, so nobody was 'falling behind,' real wages were simply constant.
If that were the case the minimum wage would have increased every single year, you know, with inflation. That hadnít been the case. Interestingly enough even under the old system every time increasing the minimum was brought up we would still always hear the same arguments that it would hurt businesses.

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Great, well let's work through a real world example from this Herald article:


So pre-minimum wage increase, let's assume we have a hostess making $10.20/hr, three waiters at $9.20hr plus an additional $9.20 in tips, and a manager making $25/hr. That equates to total aggregate earnings of $2,104 for all employees over a 40 hour week.

Today we only have two servers making $13.60/hr, and let's assume the amount of tips stays the same but is split in two rather than three, so $13.80/hr in tips. Adding in the manager, we are still at $2,104 in gross weekly earnings.
I think your math is a little off here. If 3 servers were each making $9.20/hour in tips and the total amount of tips coming in remained the same and were split 2 ways instead of 3 if one server left, then the two remaining servers would be making $13.80 in tips alone. Add their minimum wage to that and they would be earning $27.40/hour or $1096/week. The total earnings for both employees combined would be $2192(not including the manager)

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We now have two people who are clearly better off and two others that are no longer working.
If you want to assume the 2 former employees couldnít find other jobs.

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The amount of take home pay has remained the exact same.
Thatís clearly not the case. Even using your example.

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All we've done is shift things around - is this a better scenario? The bottom line is the fact that a minimum wage increase does not magically increase the amount of pay available to workers, only capital investment and economic growth can do that.
I donít remember ever arguing that it changed the amount of pay available for workers. Oddly enough(according to the article you posted) it is somehow magically increasing the available pay to employees whoís employers are now giving their employees raises to keep them above minimum wage.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:43 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
If that were the case the minimum wage would have increased every single year, you know, with inflation. That hadnít been the case. Interestingly enough even under the old system every time increasing the minimum was brought up we would still always hear the same arguments that it would hurt businesses.
Did you even look this up before you posted?

Alberta Minimum Wage History
Alberta 01-Sep-14 $10.20 2.51%
Alberta 01-Sep-13 $9.95 2.05%
Alberta 01-Sep-12 $9.75 3.72%
Alberta 01-Sep-11 $9.40 6.82%

Under the old policy minimum wage was increased every year, you know, with inflation. And prior to that, even though it wasn't raised annually, annualized minimum wage growth was 4.47% between 1992 and 2009, higher than CPI growth of 4.29% over the same period.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Interestingly enough even under the old system every time increasing the minimum was brought up we would still always hear the same arguments that it would hurt businesses.
Really? I don't recall much controversy at all. It was almost universally viewed as a fair system that accomplished exactly what a minimum wage is intended to.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
I think your math is a little off here. If 3 servers were each making $9.20/hour in tips and the total amount of tips coming in remained the same and were split 2 ways instead of 3 if one server left, then the two remaining servers would be making $13.80 in tips alone. Add their minimum wage to that and they would be earning $27.40/hour or $1096/week. The total earnings for both employees combined would be $2192(not including the manager)
Apologies, I may have made a typo in haste but it doesn't affect the bottom line. Why are you ignoring the hostess?

Weekly Earnings Pre-Wage Increase
Rate / Base Pay / Tips /Total
Hostess $10.20 / hr / $408 / $408
Server $9.20 / hr / $368 / $368 / $736
Server $9.20 / hr / $368 /$368 / $736
Server $9.20 / hr / $368 /$368 / $736
Manager $25.00 / hr / $1,000 $1,000
Overall: $3,616
Weekly Earnings Today
Rate / Base Pay / Tips / Total
Server $13.60 / hr / $544 / $552 / $1,096
Server $13.60 / hr / $544 / $552 / $1,096
Manager $28.00 / hr / $1,120 / $1,120
Overall: $3,312
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
If you want to assume the 2 former employees couldnít find other jobs.
Well, with thousands of service industry jobs disappearing, itís not going to be easy. And even if these two hypothetical former employees find jobs, we know there are others who will not.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Thatís clearly not the case. Even using your example.
Well, yes itís actually decreased. In any case, things are not improving, except for those who manage to keep their minimum wage jobs. Once you consider the impact of this type of thing occurring at businesses across the province, you start to understand why we are seeing these poor employment numbers.
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
I donít remember ever arguing that it changed the amount of pay available for workers.
So you admit that a minimum wage increase of this magnitude only shifts earnings away from marginal employees while rewarding others? What is the benefit of this from a public policy perspective considering the public costs of increased unemployment?
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Oddly enough(according to the article you posted) it is somehow magically increasing the available pay to employees whoís employers are now giving their employees raises to keep them above minimum wage.
Can you please explain what you mean in this sentence?
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:49 PM   #49
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Old 08-15-2018, 07:03 PM   #50
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But 25,7000 jobs lost weren't minimum wage jobs. That number is the entire service sector, there were more jobs lost in Finance and Insurance than there were in Accommodations and Food Service, and I don't believe a minimum wage hike is affecting the Finance industry very much. There is also the effect that as better jobs become available, especially in the good-producing sector than people will leave the lower paying positions to move up.

I am not trying to argue that the minimum wage has had no effect, you can tell with rising prices at restaurants and lower staffing levels that it has. How much the minimum wage is directly attributable to job losses is a lot harder to define. Maybe for the 8,300 lost in the A&F industry, but I think its much more of a stretch for the whole service sector.
Yeah well I would agree that not every job lost in Alberta is as a result of the increased minimum wage. Itís interesting to me that insurance and financial sectors have those decreases actually. I wonder if that is as a result of cost cutting at the banks or where it stems from?

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Iíd argue itís no more intellectually dishonest than cherry picking data from one region and using that as the basis for your argument that the increase to the minimum wage was the root cause of the job losses. If that were the case we wouldnít have seen a overall increase in employment in that industry across the province. Itís about as silly as saying the jobs lost in the finance industry were also a result of the minimum wage increase.
You mention the cherry picking of data, and I can accept that. But then you use one report from the government with nothing broken down at all. So fairs, fair. Calgary is the largest market in the province, and clearly an enormous impact on the overall provincial situation. If small businesses here claim that there are job losses and reduced work for people due to the wage increases, I think itís incumbent on politicians to take it into account.

I know that youíre the resident NDP apologist, so you wonít acknowledge this. But the fact is people said that this was coming, and itís happening. You might say the number of job losses is being blown out of proportion or it was actually 25,000 it was more like 15,000 and to that I would ask how many are acceptable? Youíre a labour guy, so clearly you have to agree that more people working is better for everyone?
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Zarley View Post

We now have two people who are clearly better off and two others that are no longer working. The amount of take home pay has remained the exact same. All we've done is shift things around - is this a better scenario? The bottom line is the fact that a minimum wage increase does not magically increase the amount of pay available to workers, only capital investment and economic growth can do that.
How many people walked out of this restaurant because it took forever to have them seated without a host/hostess?

How much sales were lost because the guests were fed up when they couldn't get one of the two server's attention?

How much less did they tip because the overworked server didn't provide high level, personalized service?

Will the manager be searching for new staff now that these servers are forced to work and probably bank their overtime causing them to quit?

It's not as simple as saying "Well, we're gonna cut staff and we'll save money".
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:41 PM   #52
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Iggy oi is ideologically entrenched and it's been made pretty clear that he / she isn't willing to really ever question their own position when it comes to virtually any political issue.

I'm frequently impressed with people's willingness to engage because there really is no point.
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:03 PM   #53
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Iggy oi is ideologically entrenched and it's been made pretty clear that he / she isn't willing to really ever question their own position when it comes to virtually any political issue.

I'm frequently impressed with people's willingness to engage because there really is no point.
Never questioning their own position describes 90% of the off topic forum posters so I'm not sure why you're calling out Iggy

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Old 08-15-2018, 11:14 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by longsuffering View Post
Never questioning their own position describes 90% of the off topic forum posters so I'm not sure why you're calling out Iggy

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Eh, kinda. Iím not sure anyone is as entrenched as him on here but must just be me.
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:15 PM   #55
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Iggy oi is ideologically entrenched and it's been made pretty clear that he / she isn't willing to really ever question their own position when it comes to virtually any political issue.

I'm frequently impressed with people's willingness to engage because there really is no point.
I think he's being the devils advocate in these discussions. Arguing the other point of view.
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:55 PM   #56
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GUNTER: NDP civil war between Notley and Singh a minor skirmish

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On Tuesday, oil analysts Wood Mackenzie Ltd. reported that international energy firms are poised to invest nearly $300 billion in new projects around the world over the next three years, but very little of that in Canada.

Thatís not Singhís doing. He has no power over policy, regulations or taxes yet. The unattractiveness of Canada to energy investors is the direct result of the anti-oil climate created by the Trudeau Liberals in Ottawa and the New Democrats in Alberta and B.C.
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Now itís our turn to laugh at Notleyís contention that somehow her policies Ė such as ďsocial licenceĒ Ė have been good for the jobs of ordinary Albertans.

Ask all the oil-field and coal-plant workers whoíve been laid off since she took over.

Of course, when Notley was in opposition and no one, including her, imagined she would ever be premier, she was like Singh. She routinely called for greater environmental regulations and limits on the growth of our oil and gas sector, particularly the oilsands.

In a speech in Peace River in 2011, Notley even insisted that ďsometimes public interest is better served by limiting the profitability of that business,Ē by which she meant the energy industry.

In 2008, one of Notleyís then constituency workers, Denise Ogonoski, repelled from the roof of Edmontonís Shaw Conference Centre during a Tory fundraiser unfurling a ďStop the Tar SandsĒ banner. Also in 2008, Notley told the newspaper Fort McMurray Today ďThe NDP wants what most Albertans want: for the Tories to stop issuing new tar sands development leases until environmental health and economic assessments of the region are completed.Ē

Yes, Notley has been a vocal supporter of the Trans Mountain pipeline Ė recently. But she opposed Northern Gateway and has been lukewarm, at best, to Keystone XL. Itís hard to shake the impression her current Trans Mountain support is anything more than political butt-saving.
https://edmontonsun.com/opinion/colu...minor-skirmish
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:01 AM   #57
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Kenney's new UCP campaign team worked with Stephen Harper, B.C.'s Christy Clark

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Jason Kenney has named his top staffer as the lead official for the United Conservative Party campaign in 2019.

Kenney on Wednesday announced the UCPís senior officials for the upcoming provincial election, slated for spring of next year.

All three have significant roots in Stephen Harperís former federal Conservative government, if not Alberta politics.

Nick Koolsbergen, currently the chief of staff for the UCP caucus, will become the partyís campaign director in September.

Koolsbergen has previously served as director of issues management in Harperís PMO and chief of staff for British Columbiaís former premier, Christy Clark.

Dimitri Pantazopoulos, who has advised on strategy and public opinion research for Harper and Clark, as well as new Ontario premier Doug Ford, has been named senior strategic adviser for the UCP campaign, handling advertising and polling.

Andrea Smotra, a former regional affairs adviser for Harper, has been named the UCPís director of election readiness. She has also worked for Manitoba premier Brian Pallister and as a campaign staffer for the Saskatchewan Party, and most recently served as intergovernmental affairs strategist for the City of Red Deer
https://edmontonsun.com/news/politic...f-8046c86eb61a
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:57 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Zarley View Post
Did you even look this up before you posted?

Alberta Minimum Wage History
Alberta 01-Sep-14 $10.20 2.51%
Alberta 01-Sep-13 $9.95 2.05%
Alberta 01-Sep-12 $9.75 3.72%
Alberta 01-Sep-11 $9.40 6.82%

Under the old policy minimum wage was increased every year, you know, with inflation. And prior to that, even though it wasn't raised annually, annualized minimum wage growth was 4.47% between 1992 and 2009, higher than CPI growth of 4.29% over the same period.
The annual increases based on the rate of inflation in the 4 consecutive years prior to the NDP were a step in the right direction, however they didnít address the minimum wage being significantly outpaced by inflation over the course of 4 decades.

You canít play catch up with inflation the way youíre implying that you can. Imagine minimum wage is $1/hour and over a 5 year period the rate of inflation is 5% each year, or 25% total over 5 years. If you made the increase every year with inflation at the end of the the 5 years minimum wage would be $1.26/hour as opposed to $1.25/hour if you only make the calculation once at the end of the 5 years. This example makes the difference seem negligible but over the course of decades it adds up. This was discussed quite a bit earlier in this thread with Alberta specific numbers https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=5262

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Really? I don't recall much controversy at all. It was almost universally viewed as a fair system that accomplished exactly what a minimum wage is intended to.
Iím just curious, what exactly do you believe minimum wage is intended to do?

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Apologies, I may have made a typo in haste but it doesn't affect the bottom line. Why are you ignoring the hostess?
Ignoring her? You were trying to argue that the remaining servers were not earning more as a result of the two other employees losing their jobs (the hostess being one of those employees). What would you like to discuss about the hostess?

Weekly Earnings Pre-Wage Increase
Rate / Base Pay / Tips /Total
Hostess $10.20 / hr / $408 / $408
Server $9.20 / hr / $368 / $368 / $736
Server $9.20 / hr / $368 /$368 / $736
Server $9.20 / hr / $368 /$368 / $736
Manager $25.00 / hr / $1,000 $1,000
Overall: $3,616
Weekly Earnings Today
Rate / Base Pay / Tips / Total
Server $13.60 / hr / $544 / $552 / $1,096
Server $13.60 / hr / $544 / $552 / $1,096
Manager $28.00 / hr / $1,120 / $1,120
Overall: $3,312[/QUOTE]

Makes you wonder why they gave the manager a raise with such tough times for the business. In doing so they basically put bringing on an additional staff member twice as far behind from a budget perspective.

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Well, with thousands of service industry jobs disappearing, itís not going to be easy. And even if these two hypothetical former employees find jobs, we know there are others who will not.
Do you assume the economy will perpetually shrink and that those others will never find jobs?

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Well, yes itís actually decreased.
I misinterpreted which net pay you were referring to originally. However the argument that net pay wonít increase overall assumes that the majority of employers who are paying minimum wage are doing so because they are at their breaking point.

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In any case, things are not improving, except for those who manage to keep their minimum wage jobs. Once you consider the impact of this type of thing occurring at businesses across the province, you start to understand why we are seeing these poor employment numbers.
If it were happening across the province Iíd probably agree with you. However the reality is that despite the tough times the industry has faced in Calgary over the past year, the overall provincial job numbers in accommodation and food service are up, and retail has only seen a very minimal loss.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/ce51...-july-2018.pdf

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So you admit that a minimum wage increase of this magnitude only shifts earnings away from marginal employees while rewarding others?
No. Are you trying to suggest that every single minimum wage employer will reduce staff? Even Amber Ruddy wouldnít go that far.

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What is the benefit of this from a public policy perspective considering the public costs of increased unemployment?
Unemployment has been trending downward across the province for most of this past year.

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Can you please explain what you mean in this sentence?
From the herald article:

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ďWhat we have heard from members and businesses is that even those that donít pay minimum wage are having to increase their wages. Some businesses donít want to be seen to be offering the minimum so when minimum wage goes up it pushes their wages up.Ē
Some of your arguments and examples make it seem as though you believe the majority of employers pay their employees as much as they possibly can as opposed to what they have to pay them.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:42 AM   #59
Red Slinger
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Originally Posted by craigwd View Post
How many people walked out of this restaurant because it took forever to have them seated without a host/hostess?

How much sales were lost because the guests were fed up when they couldn't get one of the two server's attention?

How much less did they tip because the overworked server didn't provide high level, personalized service?

Will the manager be searching for new staff now that these servers are forced to work and probably bank their overtime causing them to quit?

It's not as simple as saying "Well, we're gonna cut staff and we'll save money".
Exactly. Businesses will collapse if they reduce the number of positions to the point where customers are no longer happy.

The argument that the business will go on but with fewer employees doesn't usually work. Conversely, the argument that with a raised minimum wage the business will continue the same and everyone will get paid more also usually doesn't work.

The reality is closer to: the business will find a way to optimize costs, which may include some non-essential cuts that don't effect customer service while passing on the wage increases to the customer.

Iggy_oi is a staunch left-wing, union supporter. Probably the only one in this thread/site. There are many more posters who are just as stubborn in their position but on the hard-right of the spectrum. But because there are more of them iggy seems like the outlier and hold-out. I don't see Zarley, DiracSpike, Jacks or others taking a position that can be described as anything but entrenched.
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Last edited by Red Slinger; 08-16-2018 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:38 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
The annual increases based on the rate of inflation in the 4 consecutive years prior to the NDP were a step in the right direction, however they didnít address the minimum wage being significantly outpaced by inflation over the course of 4 decades.
This is wrong. Minimum wage growth between 1965 (the year in which it was implemented) and 2014, expressed as an annual compound rate, was 4.85%. Inflation was 4.14% over the same period, also expressed as an annual compound rate.

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Iím just curious, what exactly do you believe minimum wage is intended to do?
Economically, a minimum wage should be set at the market wage for an entry level, unskilled job. As a policy, a minimum wage is designed to protect vulnerable employees from exploitation. It's not an effective means of raising living standards for working people because of the significant number of distortionary impacts on the economy produced by setting a minimum wage policy above the market minimum wage.


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You were trying to argue that the remaining servers were not earning more as a result of the two other employees losing their jobs (the hostess being one of those employees). What would you like to discuss about the hostess?
I think you may have had trouble understanding the example. I was only illustrating that, in this specific case, the minimum wage increase has produced the opposite of its intended effect: an absolute decrease in aggregate earnings at this firm.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Makes you wonder why they gave the manager a raise with such tough times for the business. In doing so they basically put bringing on an additional staff member twice as far behind from a budget perspective.
Because a manager needs to earn more than the staff they are managing, otherwise there is no incentive to take on the additional responsibility.

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Do you assume the economy will perpetually shrink and that those others will never find jobs?
No not at all, not sure where you are getting this thought from.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
If it were happening across the province Iíd probably agree with you. However the reality is that despite the tough times the industry has faced in Calgary over the past year, the overall provincial job numbers in accommodation and food service are up, and retail has only seen a very minimal loss.
If you look at the annual numbers, which provide a more stabilized picture of employment, you'll note a net decrease of 1,100 jobs in those two sectors. At best, growth in these types of positions across the province has been flat.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
No. Are you trying to suggest that every single minimum wage employer will reduce staff? Even Amber Ruddy wouldnít go that far.
No, not at all. Reducing staffing is simply one option of dealing with an increase in the cost of labour. Other options include absorbing the increase if they have the margin to do so, cutting costs elsewhere, or raising prices to consumers.

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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Some of your arguments and examples make it seem as though you believe the majority of employers pay their employees as much as they possibly can as opposed to what they have to pay them.
Not sure where you're getting this from. Firms pay employees a wage based on a number of factors: the skill level of their employees, the number of people in the market holding that skill, and the demand for that particular skill.
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