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Old 08-31-2018, 04:10 PM   #41
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sort of back on topic but was chatting with a buddy today who raised the question. Why would the marine impacts come into question for a pipeline?

If a shipping company was getting contracts in place to deliver raw goods such as chemicals or other hazardous substances to Canada's west coast, do they need to consult with BC Transportation for highways, roads, rail or access points that deliver said product to the interior?

Just seems like what happens with the marine vs. land are two separate things, does anyone know where I could read about this? Is it a double standard applied to pipelines?
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:23 PM   #42
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Such as...
Sorry, I should have worded that better. Setting a legal precedent for "duty to consult" is obviously a huge deal that has massive widespread legal ramifications, so it makes sense for First Nations groups to challenge any example that risks setting a very low minimum requirement as legal precedent.
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:26 PM   #43
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Totally accurate. BC doesn't have treaties like 6, 7 and 8 in Alberta which allow for more industry-friendly access for development. In BC, a band from Hope could theoretically object to a project in Fort St.John if they can claim they had ancestral territorial rights there. It's a problem for development in BC, but not an insurmountable one.
I think this is a huge problem that people from other provinces don't fully understand or appreciate. Most of the land in BC has never been ceded to the Crown, which makes it much more difficult to get anything done here. It's basically a century of successive racist, colonialist provincial governments in BC coming back to bite the entire country in the ass.
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:28 PM   #44
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I think this is a huge problem that people from other provinces don't fully understand or appreciate. Most of the land in BC has never been ceded to the Crown, which makes it much more difficult to get anything done here. It's basically a century of successive racist, colonialist provincial governments in BC coming back to bite the entire country in the ass.
exactly. Do you get the impression from living out there that the people in BC generally understand this and are okay with it or do you think most people don't really understand the economic implications? Or don't care?
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:30 PM   #45
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exactly. Do you get the impression from living out there that the people in BC generally understand this and are okay with it or do you think most people don't really understand the economic implications? Or don't care?
I think most people understand the implications, but the alternatives are really, really ugly.
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:39 PM   #46
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like what kind of alternatives do you mean?
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:07 PM   #47
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like what kind of alternatives do you mean?
Well really the only alternative that I can see, outside of working cooperatively with the bands, is some kind of aggressive and illegal land grab. I guess another option would be for the government to spend a massive amount of money trying to purchase some sort of title/treaty agreement, but good luck with that.
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:16 PM   #48
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Sorry, I should have worded that better. Setting a legal precedent for "duty to consult" is obviously a huge deal that has massive widespread legal ramifications, so it makes sense for First Nations groups to challenge any example that risks setting a very low minimum requirement as legal precedent.
Thanks for clarifying, that definitely makes sense from a FN perspective. It does really seem like we're going to have to establish some nation-wide standard though because it's clear from this result that everyone, from companies to the government to the courts, are confused about what entails consultations and consensus. I have a hard time believing that those in power were incompetent enough to overlook this as a possibility which means the standard is grey at best. On a larger scale as a country it's important to give FN people a voice and consultations but this has gone too far, a completely viable project has been hijacked by people not even affected in the least. I was listening to a CBC interview last night with a FN leader from Prince George who basically said that if he and his people didn't consent to this going forward the answer had to be "no". That's not workable, Prince George isn't anywhere close to being affected by this, and it's not a good faith process at all. You can't reasonably consult with people who's stance is "not under any circumstances". It's impossible.
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:30 PM   #49
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Which is why they should really appeal this to the SCC. Even just getting that direction on consultation would be at least some sort of a win.
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:37 PM   #50
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Thanks for clarifying, that definitely makes sense from a FN perspective. It does really seem like we're going to have to establish some nation-wide standard though because it's clear from this result that everyone, from companies to the government to the courts, are confused about what entails consultations and consensus. I have a hard time believing that those in power were incompetent enough to overlook this as a possibility which means the standard is grey at best. On a larger scale as a country it's important to give FN people a voice and consultations but this has gone too far, a completely viable project has been hijacked by people not even affected in the least. I was listening to a CBC interview last night with a FN leader from Prince George who basically said that if he and his people didn't consent to this going forward the answer had to be "no". That's not workable, Prince George isn't anywhere close to being affected by this, and it's not a good faith process at all. You can't reasonably consult with people who's stance is "not under any circumstances". It's impossible.
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Which is why they should really appeal this to the SCC. Even just getting that direction on consultation would be at least some sort of a win.
Absolutely. There really need to be some sort of legislation enacted about what this process needs to look like in general, not just from the standpoint of the NEB. Then, if need be (and I'll admit to not fully knowing the logistics of this), just start pounding the SCC with reference cases until something gets hammered out. It's not necessarily the duty to consult itself that's killing these projects, it's the fact that it's never been clearly defined and is just such a grey area.
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:42 PM   #51
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I also almost wonder if telling the AFN to come up with some sort of framework would be helpful as well. Obviously you don't want to give them carte blanche, but at least have them give you some kind of proposal that you can work off to show the courts that you've fulfilled that obligation.
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:17 PM   #52
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Edmonton Liberal MP comes out with the message, Alberta should stay in the climate plan because any judge on the appeal will look badly on Alberta if the leave the plan. This is pretty much the time where he should kind of stay quiet.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...sohi-1.4806281


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While Sohi said he empathizes with Notley's "frustration," her declaration ignores the increasing demands of the regulatory process.




The Trans Mountain proposal is the second major pipeline expansion that has been quashed by the courts, and Sohi fears federal judges won't look kindly upon Alberta's withdrawal from the national climate plan.
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:20 PM   #53
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Edmonton Liberal MP comes out with the message, Alberta should stay in the climate plan because any judge on the appeal will look badly on Alberta if the leave the plan. This is pretty much the time where he should kind of stay quiet.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...sohi-1.4806281
If the judges are influenced that much but certain ideologies they should be fired and replaced.
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:25 PM   #54
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Getting Alberta's oil to the oceans and export markets has been an issue for many decades and feels like its almost as long as we've exported oil. It's depressing, but many many governments have failed to get the problem addressed...and here we are...still going.
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:54 PM   #55
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Edmonton Liberal MP comes out with the message, Alberta should stay in the climate plan because any judge on the appeal will look badly on Alberta if the leave the plan. This is pretty much the time where he should kind of stay quiet.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...sohi-1.4806281
That's what we need, more social licence.
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Old 08-31-2018, 08:31 PM   #56
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Will be interesting to see what happens to NAFTA over the next couple of days, because now the Liberals need a win to wipe off the stank of the loss today.
Only in the minds of the most 'everything is Trudeau's fault' ideologues like yourself and a few others posting in this thread.

Take a step back Captain. Your string of posts are kinda embarrassing.

His government committed almost $5 billion to guarantee the project and yet you accuse his government of not supporting it AND wasting money. Nice to have it both ways, eh?
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Old 08-31-2018, 08:36 PM   #57
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That's what we need, more social licence.
It actually kind of comes across as a threat.
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Old 08-31-2018, 08:49 PM   #58
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Rex Murphy summing things up beautifully as usual.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex...lberta-to-take
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Old 09-01-2018, 06:40 AM   #59
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Only in the minds of the most 'everything is Trudeau's fault' ideologues like yourself and a few others posting in this thread.

Take a step back Captain. Your string of posts are kinda embarrassing.

His government committed almost $5 billion to guarantee the project and yet you accuse his government of not supporting it AND wasting money. Nice to have it both ways, eh?
Ideologues are the reason we are in this situation. Trudeau had the power to enforce and uphold the law. Instead he chose to buy a pipeline company.

Ideologues have a vision but absolutely no clue how to achieve it. They lack execution.

I don’t think anti-Trudeau folks can be labeled as ideologues. They are quite the opposite. Most of them even have the ability to think for themselves without foreign money and influence as well.
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Old 09-01-2018, 08:20 AM   #60
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Rex Murphy summing things up beautifully as usual.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex...lberta-to-take
This is really the central point to the whole thing.

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To begin at the beginning, you cannot placate the implacable. The dynamic between those who want an oil and gas industry, and the groups ideologically possessed to oppose one, is that the latter have one position and one position only: to end oil and gas in Canada. Whenever greens or their myriad fronts offer a mid-point position, a compromise, it is merely mouth-work, a moving of the lips for tactical reasons or spurious manoeuvre.

Those who harbour (or once did — Rachel Notley) the idea that there is a middle ground with green and global warming totalism, their dead-ender commitment to world-scale, Paris-stamped, UN-mustered global greenism — have simply not been watching or listening. Green environmentalism is fundamentalist.
However, I don't know that this is true.
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The government in Ottawa, both by disposition and ideologically, is far more to the green side of the world than it is or ever will be to its own and Alberta’s oil and gas industry. Paris before Calgary, “as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.”
I think they actually do want these things built, but that they also want to, as Murphy puts it, "placate the implacable".
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