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Old 04-26-2019, 10:51 AM   #21
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I remember that group of Canadians that absolutely pounded Ovechkin in the 2003 (4?) WJCs.

That Canadian squad was basically an NHL team.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:01 AM   #22
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MAF has a bunch of rings but his rep is impacted by the strength of his team.

As good as Bergeron is, I'd still probably put Getzlaf ahead by a nose.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:06 AM   #23
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I remember that group of Canadians that absolutely pounded Ovechkin in the 2003 (4?) WJCs.

That Canadian squad was basically an NHL team.
2004. And adding to it, they all got to play on that team because of the lockout.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:16 AM   #24
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Best playoff d-man out of the draft is Seabrook by a fair margin.
Finding a way to rank Seabrook ahead of Burns, Weber, Suter and Byfuglien. Classic.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:40 AM   #25
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2004. And adding to it, they all got to play on that team because of the lockout.

Where have you been?


Some great players, probably the best overall draft, some have peeked early, and faded away, some have been dominant at times, today Bergeron is the best, and might be his best season, despite missing almost twenty games and at age 33.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:32 PM   #26
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2004. And adding to it, they all got to play on that team because of the lockout.
2005 I think
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:33 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
MAF has a bunch of rings but his rep is impacted by the strength of his team.

As good as Bergeron is, I'd still probably put Getzlaf ahead by a nose.
Fair enough, but I still think your quote names the definitive top 3.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:38 PM   #28
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I must be senile. I thought the "big 3" meant the big 3 blueliners that year.....Coburn, Suter, and Phaneuf.
It was both. Those were the big 3 dmen heading into the draft, but during Dion's rookie campaign I recall THN having a cover story that highliighted AO, Crosby and Dion as the future of the NHL. He was considered that level at one point based on how he played early on.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:19 PM   #29
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If they re-did the draft today, this is how I think it shakes down. Presumably, Darryl doesn't take Mike Richards at 9 with the benefit of 16 years of hindsight.

1. Patrice Bergeron - Pittsburgh
2. Marc Andre Fleury - Carolina
3. Ryan Getzlaf - Florida
4. Eric Staal - Columbus
5. Ryan Suter - Buffalo
6. Shea Weber - San Jose
7. Zach Parise - Nashville
8. Jeff Carter - Atlanta
9. Joe Pavelski - Calgary
10. Brent Burns - Montreal
11. Dustin Byfuglien - Philadelphia
12. Corey Perry - New York Rangers
13. Corey Crawford - Los Angeles
14. Ryan Kesler - Chicago
15. Dustin Brown - New York Islanders
16. Brent Seabrook - San Jose
17. Mike Richards - New Jersey
18. Jaroslav Halak - Washington
19. David Backes - Anaheim
20. Tomas Vanek - Minnesota
21. Braydon Coburn - Boston
22. Jimmy Howard - Edmonton
23. Dion Phaneuf - Vancouver
24. Tobias Enstrom - Philadelphia
25. Loui Eriksson - Florida
26. Nathan Horton - Los Angeles
27. Milan Michalek - Los Angeles
28. Brian Boyle - Anaheim
29. Matt Moulson - Ottawa
30. Marc Methot - St Louis

Brian Elliot still goes 291, because he ####ing sucks.

Last edited by GreenLantern2814; 04-26-2019 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:34 PM   #30
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2005 I think
Yes, this was the tournament I was thinking of. Dislocated Ovi's shoulder I believe.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:43 PM   #31
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It was both. Those were the big 3 dmen heading into the draft, but during Dion's rookie campaign I recall THN having a cover story that highliighted AO, Crosby and Dion as the future of the NHL. He was considered that level at one point based on how he played early on.
I've always believed that whatever happened to Dion's hip in 2009 set his career on a different path. Watch Dion Phaneuf during his ELC, he's as explosive a player as you've ever seen. He fractures his hip (hairline or otherwise, I don't have all the facts) and all of a sudden he has Chris Pronger's skating without Chris Pronger's brain, and that's not the recipe for a franchise defenseman.

Dion also suffered a major laceration early during his time in Toronto, and leg injuries do seem to compound upon themselves.

Not that he didn't have a litany of other character flaws and defects as a hockey player, but he wasn't remotely the same player after Year 3, and I think that's why.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:48 PM   #32
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He took off after he was drafted. Before the draft he didn't have great offensive numbers in junior since he was behind Duncan Keith and a few other guys on the Kelowna Rockets defence. He was also considered under weight for his height. I think he was a late birthday so he was a bit younger than other players. If he was born a few weeks later he probably would have been top fifteen in the 2004 draft.


Wow. I saw him live when Nashville was in town and he is HUGE. I'm fairly sure he could crush my skull with one hand.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:07 PM   #33
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MAF has a bunch of rings but his rep is impacted by the strength of his team.

As good as Bergeron is, I'd still probably put Getzlaf ahead by a nose.
It's a team game. There is no example of any one player doing it alone. The closest examples I can think of are Iggy/Kipper in 04, Pronger in 05, and Karlsson in 17. They all lost, because they alone are not enough.

MAF has a bunch of rings because he's a damn good goalie with career numbers that are virtually identical to Carey Price's. If he had any signature international moments that weren't egg-on-face, he'd be talked about like he's the best French Canadian goalie since Patrick Roy.

He also happens to be the best French Canadian goalie since Patrick Roy. Or he's the second best, depending on how you feel about Corey Crawford. Who is also excellent.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:11 PM   #34
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It's a team game. There is no example of any one player doing it alone. The closest examples I can think of are Iggy/Kipper in 04, Pronger in 05, and Karlsson in 17. They all lost, because they alone are not enough.

MAF has a bunch of rings because he's a damn good goalie with career numbers that are virtually identical to Carey Price's. If he had any signature international moments that weren't egg-on-face, he'd be talked about like he's the best French Canadian goalie since Patrick Roy.

He also happens to be the best French Canadian goalie since Patrick Roy. Or he's the second best, depending on how you feel about Corey Crawford. Who is also excellent.
I'm not arguing the point, I'm just saying that the reason MAF's cup wins are often discounted by some to a certain degree is because he was on a team with the best player in the world, plus a guy who was in the top five at least. Frankly I think the best thing that ever happened to MAF rep wise is going to Vegas, to get out of Crosby/Malkin's shadow.

I think you are referring to his WJC gaffe, and I agree that's hurt him rep-wise. Plus his random stumbles in the POs (Boston series IIRC).
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:12 PM   #35
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It was both. Those were the big 3 dmen heading into the draft, but during Dion's rookie campaign I recall THN having a cover story that highliighted AO, Crosby and Dion as the future of the NHL. He was considered that level at one point based on how he played early on.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/artic...e-nhl-by-storm
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:20 PM   #36
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I'm not arguing the point, I'm just saying that the reason MAF's cup wins are often discounted by some to a certain degree is because he was on a team with the best player in the world, plus a guy who was in the top five at least. Frankly I think the best thing that ever happened to MAF rep wise is going to Vegas, to get out of Crosby/Malkin's shadow.

I think you are referring to his WJC gaffe, and I agree that's hurt him rep-wise. Plus his random stumbles in the POs (Boston series IIRC).
Yes, his WJC gaffe was unfortunate - if he'd had an Olympics or World Cup performance as a pro to fall back on, even something at the WHC, I think that'd help his cause. Unfortunately, you need some iconic game tape wearing a red maple leaf for this country to put you into a certain pantheon.

The Philadelphia series when Fleury and Bryz showed the world just how unwatchable hockey in the 80s actually was.

Bryz: .887 3.46
Fleury: .834 4.63

I got blackout drunk during the deciding game of that series while helping buddies clean out their dorm room of any remaining alcohol.

It's very strange when people discount the achievements of goalies because they play with elite forwards. If those forwards don't have a goalie, they don't win their championships. The only team I can think of that overcame appalling goaltending to win it all was the 09 Hawks, and if they hadn't been facing a Flyers team with even worse goaltending from Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher, they wouldn't have won either.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:55 PM   #37
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Phaneuf was 3rd in Calder Trophy voting in 2006, behind only Crosby and Ovechkin, and would have won it most years.

I think a lot of people forget how electrifying he was back then. He scored 20 goals his rookie year, laid out highlight reel hits every night, won fights, and was at least passable defensively.

(Dion actually finished 8th in Norris trophy voting as a rookie, but that's just because the professional hockey writers' Norris votes are a joke).
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Old 04-26-2019, 07:41 PM   #38
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Phaneuf was 3rd in Calder Trophy voting in 2006, behind only Crosby and Ovechkin, and would have won it most years.

I think a lot of people forget how electrifying he was back then. He scored 20 goals his rookie year, laid out highlight reel hits every night, won fights, and was at least passable defensively.

(Dion actually finished 8th in Norris trophy voting as a rookie, but that's just because the professional hockey writers' Norris votes are a joke).
Don’t forget Roman Hamrlik. He made Dion so much better.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:20 PM   #39
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Asked a similar question about re-ranking only the first-rounders, so Bergeron and Weber were not part of the list.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=58194
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:42 PM   #40
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Asked a similar question about re-ranking only the first-rounders, so Bergeron and Weber were not part of the list.



https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=58194
Wow Dion at #1!!!
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