This is the first draft in a long time where I think if you're drafting in the top 8 or so you'll likely get a player that can step in right now.
How much of an impact they make is yet to be known, but at the 7 slot I think there's a solid chance you could come out with a big winger/center.
Holtz
Raymond
Lundell
Quinn
Rossi
I'd totally entertain the Zacha package myself, and I think its realistic in terms of something Jersey would do.
Would I like more? Obviously, as I think CGY is losing the "best player" side of the trade but this is what it would take, and would only be something I'd do if we were certain that we could sign Hall as well.
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Salary cap says otherwise. You have to look at the other needs of teams as well. You just can't arbitrarily throw out players and draft picks you want and think the team is going to cough them up. There has to be benefit for the other team as well. A big part of that is having the traded contracts balance out. Teams that don't spend to the cap do so because of an internal budget. Those teams are unlikely to spend beyond that number even if they are getting a star player for magic beans. They have to ship out dollars as well.
I don't think Treliving goes near that. The best guaranteed asset the Flames back is a third line center. They would then be taking back two future players. Love Smith's numbers, but is an undersized offensive defenseman what the Flames need? Is another lottery ticket? Do they want to wait the two to three years for both players to develop? I don't think so and that makes the deal worse. A deal for players that aren't ready to play right now is pressing pause and wasting the great contracts they have in Lindholm, Monahan, Tkachuk, and Hanafin.
That is a good point. The expansion draft is a concern, but the Flames have the slots to protect Myers so long as they don't do something silly and play Valimaki this year.
Don't agree here. Frost has sky rocketed as a prospect. He has way more potential and actually showing it. This pass first center has first line talent. The only question is does he have the size to play at that level? I think he does. I love Zacha's size and style of play, but I see him as a third line center. A damn good one, but a third line center. In a couple years I believe Frost will be a player that teams will wonder why they didn't jump on him earlier in his draft year. There are already lots saying that.
Yes and no. It depends on the team's plan. If the plan is to try and be better next season, then the 7th doesn't help that. If you know you have to eat a salary similar to Gaudreau's to get the assets you want, then it is a good salary to eat because it also addresses the need up front. If the goal is to make the team better long term, then yes, that 7th over all pick is likely going to have greater value. Especially if there is a player in that range the Flames are in love with. The big thing with that pick is that it has to be a home run. It can't be another Sam Bennett. I'm not confident this team can go to the draft table and come away with that home run, which is why I hope they stay away from draft picks. The pro scouts appear to do a better job than the amateur scouts.
MAYBE being one year away from making the team. Then how long until that player can actually contribute? There's a difference between making the team and being the player the team needs him to be.
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Then we don’t deal with Philly and I looked at other teams like New Jersey and Buffalo as better trade partners because they have assets, needs and cap space to make the deal work. You make it sound like we have to trade him to Philly and therefore have to eat a bad contract. Simply not the case and the money in money out issue is why these deals don’t happen during the season. When the Flames traded for Dougie they sent zero cap to the Bruins and immediately picked up a player they paid $5.75M for.
I don’t know why you are so concerned about the 7th pick in the draft? It could bust or could be a top line player. I think chances are better they can find a future core piece.
I don’t see a protection slot available for Myers without losing Gio. You are fine losing Gio for nothing which I don’t think the organization would agree.
I just don’t know what you see in Frost. He is Dillion Dube to me which is a good young player but you have him centering our second line next year. Not a ppg in AHL, 7pts in 20 games in the NHL and drafted 3 years ago. I take my chances with the 7th pick over this guy every day.
No and no. Voracek means the team can’t sign Hall and having Voracek, Lucic, Backlund all on huge money deals hurts the teams ability to add to this group. It takes away the free asset in Taylor Hall who is the main reason I fee this team can move on from Johnny in the first place.
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Say the Flames win the lottery (and lose to the Jets ) do you:
a) Spend Futures and go all in with JH and Hall next year?
b) Take a JH trade package (Frost or Zacha / Picks from above) and extend the window.
c) Stay with the current plan (minor free agent signings / movement) with the big prospect boost
d) FIRE SALE and mini rebuild to be amazing on 3-4 years (Keep Lindholm/Chucky/Andy/Vali sell Mony/Johnny and anyone over 25?)
e) Trade down for multiple top picks (C / D)
Last edited by FlamesLitSquad; 07-09-2020 at 08:36 AM.
Reason: added e)
Say the Flames win the lottery (and lose to the Jets ) do you:
a) Spend Futures and go all in with JH and Hall next year?
b) Take a JH trade package (Frost or Zacha / Picks from above) and extend the window.
c) Stay with the current plan (minor free agent signings / movement) with the big prospect boost
d) FIRE SALE and mini rebuild to be amazing on 3-4 years (Keep Lindholm/Chucky/Andy/Vali sell Mony/Johnny and anyone over 25?)
e) Trade down for multiple top picks (C / D)
I pick Lafreniere, still go after Hall, and I shop Gaudreau....if someone blows my doors off with an offer I trade him, other wise I play some guys on their off wing and go for it.
Interesting and timely article at the Athletic today comparing Farabee vs Frost's forechecking abilities. I post this because it seems we have a split in here with some of us liking Frost and some liking Farabee as a player to add in a potential Gaudreau deal.
I know more about Frost and he would be my first choice although Farabee would be a nice addition also.
The sample size is small but the beat writer spent a fair amount of time with this and it sounds opposite to what some might have thought about Frost being a slow, offensive only player.
Quote:
Frost’s pre-NHL reputation didn’t appear to fit the mold of a plus forechecker, but it seems like he might be just that. One of the key strengths of Farabee’s game was supposed to be forechecking, but if anything, it was a weakness in 2019-20.
Last edited by SportsJunky; 07-09-2020 at 08:47 AM.
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Interesting and timely article at the Athletic today comparing Farabee vs Frost's forechecking abilities. I post this because it seems we have a split in here with some of us liking Frost and some liking Farabee as a player to add in a potential Gaudreau deal.
I know more about Frost and he would be my first choice although Farabee would be a nice addition also.
The sample size is small but the beat writer spent a fair amount of time with this and it sounds opposite to what some might have thought about Frost being a slow, offensive only player.
Yeah, someone said in here Frost was an average skater, from what I've seen he's a fast skater, and most scouting reports also list skating as one of his best assets. He's also very smart and hard working with plenty of offensive upside.
No one should be surprised if over the next year he cements himself as a top 6 center and then catches the label of "untouchable".
I went through the history of trades in recent years and there really isn't a comparable for the Johnny situation other than Matt Duchene. I suppose you could say Ryan O'Reilly, but the Ryan O'Reilly that was traded to St. Louis had openly declared he no longer loved hockey and wanted the hell out of Buffalo - and the GM that made that trade no longer works there while the team itself has been stuck at the bottom of the league.
The key thing with the Duchene trade was the patience that Sakic showed, which may be the only path forward for the Flames if they do want to move on from Johnny.
I think if Taylor Hall wants to sign here, you sign him - regardless of what happens with Johnny. Once you sign Hall, you can then begin trade negotiations surrounding Johnny but you only pull the trigger once you get the deal you want (and it will come, Johnny is top level elite). Until that trade happens, sure - deal with the cap crunch. Overspending on top-offensive talent is something this team has never really done, and well...we know what kind of success we've had.
FORWARDS (13)
Right wing: Johnny Gaudreau ($6,750,000) - Matthew Tkachuk ($7,000,000) - Sam Bennett ($2,550,000) - Matthew Phillips ($733,333)
Centre: Sean Monahan ($6,375,000) - Mikael Backlund ($5,350,000) - Elias Lindholm ($4,850,000) - Derek Ryan ($3,125,000)
Left wing: Taylor Hall ($8,000,000) - Andrew Mangiapane ($2,000,000) - Dillon Dubé ($778,333) - Milan Lucic ($5,250,000) - Alan Quine ($700,000)
DEFENSE (7)
Right: Rasmus Andersson ($4,550,000) - Juuso Välimäki ($894,166) - Oliver Kylington ($800,000) - Michael Stone ($700,000)
Left: Mark Giordano ($6,750,000) - Noah Hanifin ($4,950,000) - Connor Mackey ($925,000)
GOALTENDER (2)
David Rittich ($2,750,000) - Braden Holtby ($2,750,000)
BUYOUTS (2)
Troy Brouwer ($1,500,000) - Michael Stone ($1,166,667)
DETAILS
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $81,197,499
Cap Space: $302,501
Contracts:
Taylor Hall (7 years, $8M AAV)
Andrew Mangiapane (2 years, $2M AAV)
Michael Stone (1 year, $700K)
Alan Quine (1 year, $700K)
Brayden Holtby (1 year, $2.75M)
Say the Flames win the lottery (and lose to the Jets ) do you:
a) Spend Futures and go all in with JH and Hall next year?
b) Take a JH trade package (Frost or Zacha / Picks from above) and extend the window.
c) Stay with the current plan (minor free agent signings / movement) with the big prospect boost
d) FIRE SALE and mini rebuild to be amazing on 3-4 years (Keep Lindholm/Chucky/Andy/Vali sell Mony/Johnny and anyone over 25?)
e) Trade down for multiple top picks (C / D)
IMO you have to look at a Gaudreau trade on its own merits. He as two years on his contract with the Flames and that is of great value to the organization. Does someone else value those two years more than you?
Or if you sign a similar player, a la Hall, is Gaudreau suddenly of less use to you and you're interested in trading for a different type of player that better fits your roster?
For me the question isn't do you trade Gaudreau. It's what do you need to transform into a contender, and does Gaudreau get you that?
Last edited by Strange Brew; 07-09-2020 at 09:16 AM.
I went through the history of trades in recent years and there really isn't a comparable for the Johnny situation other than Matt Duchene. I suppose you could say Ryan O'Reilly, but the Ryan O'Reilly that was traded to St. Louis had openly declared he no longer loved hockey and wanted the hell out of Buffalo - and the GM that made that trade no longer works there while the team itself has been stuck at the bottom of the league.
The key thing with the Duchene trade was the patience that Sakic showed, which may be the only path forward for the Flames if they do want to move on from Johnny.
I think if Taylor Hall wants to sign here, you sign him - regardless of what happens with Johnny. Once you sign Hall, you can then begin trade negotiations surrounding Johnny but you only pull the trigger once you get the deal you want (and it will come, Johnny is top level elite). Until that trade happens, sure - deal with the cap crunch. Overspending on top-offensive talent is something this team has never really done, and well...we know what kind of success we've had.
FORWARDS (13)
Right wing: Johnny Gaudreau ($6,750,000) - Matthew Tkachuk ($7,000,000) - Sam Bennett ($2,550,000) - Matthew Phillips ($733,333)
Centre: Sean Monahan ($6,375,000) - Mikael Backlund ($5,350,000) - Elias Lindholm ($4,850,000) - Derek Ryan ($3,125,000)
Left wing: Taylor Hall ($8,000,000) - Andrew Mangiapane ($2,000,000) - Dillon Dubé ($778,333) - Milan Lucic ($5,250,000) - Alan Quine ($700,000)
DEFENSE (7)
Right: Rasmus Andersson ($4,550,000) - Juuso Välimäki ($894,166) - Oliver Kylington ($800,000) - Michael Stone ($700,000)
Left: Mark Giordano ($6,750,000) - Noah Hanifin ($4,950,000) - Connor Mackey ($925,000)
GOALTENDER (2)
David Rittich ($2,750,000) - Braden Holtby ($2,750,000)
BUYOUTS (2)
Troy Brouwer ($1,500,000) - Michael Stone ($1,166,667)
DETAILS
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $81,197,499
Cap Space: $302,501
Contracts:
Taylor Hall (7 years, $8M AAV)
Andrew Mangiapane (2 years, $2M AAV)
Michael Stone (1 year, $700K)
Alan Quine (1 year, $700K)
Brayden Holtby (1 year, $2.75M)
Mighty tight, and I think we would be Very lucky to get Holtby and Mangiapane in at those amounts, but it's not completely impossible.
Interesting squad, a lot of folks playing on "off" hands but I have never been hugely bought into that positional need myself.
Christ, that Penguins one especially. A sub-.900 goalie in need of a big contract in Murray, Jack Johnson's albatross contract, and a second-round prospect from four years ago? I would have to think about trading Lucic for that. Johnny? I block the number.
That's actually the worst proposal I've ever seen. But I don't know what I expected from Shug McSween.
__________________
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I doubt the Rangers one happens as DeAngelo was killing it at the end of the year but that is probably the closest one listed as we would get a likely Mid tier starting goalie.
The PIT one is terrible - Johnson would not be in our top 6, if we want a defensive liability we can re-sign Gus or play Kylington more... also we don't really need more help on LW.
Sometimes I wonder if people making those trades even know team needs.
That Penguins deal is the absolute worst. I wouldn't take that deal if we also sent Lucic the other way. Murray has been down for about 3 years now, longer than he was at the top of his game. And that Johnson contract is an absolute non-starter.
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I dislike the Rangers proposal as well because I don't want Sean Avery 2.0 anywhere near my team. DeAngelo can kick rocks as far as I'm concerned.
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The NYR one had potential, but we need cap space, not two RFAs looking for deals.
Well we would be spending the cap space regardless and they would spread it out and still save us some space. But I would want more than Georgiev and DeAngelo
DeAngelo is actually a piece we could use (attitude issues aside), a young RHD with huge offense. Flames struggle to score from the back end with Gio slowing down.
Georgiev is also a piece we could use, but not for Johnny IMO.
) do you:
