Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #2

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I don't think so. He still had to draft and oversee the AHL team. So even though there was not a hockey season it was a year to still manage the overall organization.

At one point people were very approving of what Daryl Sutter had done. Time has worn that away. Sutter's teams had a playoff record of 13-20 losing their last 5 series. His drafting was not very good and he did make some off trades. But I am not so convinced that Treliving has been so much better at this point. Really out of Bennett, Anderson, Dube, Kylington, Tkachuck, Mangiapane, and Valimaki how much of the Flames improved drafting is based on known results as opposed to what fans anticipate in the future? Adam Fox can factor into drafting too.

Good point about the roster management in the off year, I was thinking more in terms of his on ice seasons body of work

Again, looking at the last playoff series that Sutter oversaw, just go back and see what injuries the Flames were up against

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=420547

Defenceman Mark Giordano underwent season-ending shoulder surgery Feb. 23. Winger Rene Bourque suffered a high ankle sprain Feb. 19 that both sidelined him for the last 24 games of the regular season and limited his effectiveness in the playoffs.

Second-line centre Daymond Langkow missed 10 games with an injured left hand suffered Feb. 17. He took a slapshot off his right hand in the fourth game of the playoffs and couldn't shoot the puck.

Those injuries in February contributed to the erosion of what had been a 13-point cushion at the top of the division in January. That drop ultimately cost Calgary home-ice advantage for the playoffs.

The Flames' top three defencemen were either missing or injured in the post-season, which severely compromised their ability to hold back the speedy Blackhawks.

Robyn Regehr (knee) did not appear. Dion Phaneuf played his usual big minutes, but wasn't fully functional because he played with broken ribs and was scratched from the lineup Monday after a hard check in Game 6. Cory Sarich played on a fractured foot.

That article didn’t mention that Warrener also didn’t play.

That team was deep and were very strong. Meddling ownership made Sutter turf Keenan. That was a shame, it was not on the GM

Tre has been fine, I like him all right. But he inherited a team from Feaster that was young, but had a few talented pieces, and made the playoffs. With 5 years of his management, the team has been one year in, one year out, and now is, this year, still a bubble team.

I think a lot of people are too emotionally attached to the team to actually look at it objectively.

[Jiri Hrdina]

^Good post up until the end. I don't know why people need to assume just because they have a different view that they aren't being as objective. The reality is that we all have our biases. So assuming one view is more/less objective is more often than not - not particularly valid, and a way that folks dismiss opposing views rather than seek to understand them.

I will say for me I am NOT in love with this team. Something is off with it. I don't think the players are committed. But I think the GM assembled a talented team, and I place more of the blame on the players than the GM. At some point the talent you assemble has to execute.

But others are welcome to disagree, and that doesn't mean they aren't being less objective.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Yeah, I get what you are saying, and why you say that, and it wasn’t meant in the personal way you appear to be interpreting it.

I’m not apologizing for, or changing, the end but I will clarify

I think it is good to be emotionally invested in the current team - most of us are, to some extent - and it makes sense to be detached from previous incarnations

I meant to suggest that there may be a subconscious desire to focus on the positive / potential value related work of the GM that is currently on the hook for the team in which people are emotionally invested

Sutter’s tenure is complete and we know how it ended. Tre’s still got a chance for a cup!

[FireGilbert]

The idea that Feaster left Treliving with some quality pieces is a bit of a myth. Sure he’d collected a few nice offensive prospects but left the team lacking any defensive prospects, a goalie, or right handed shots.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

^Good post up until the end. I don't know why people need to assume just because they have a different view that they aren't being as objective. The reality is that we all have our biases. So assuming one view is more/less objective is more often than not - not particularly valid, and a way that folks dismiss opposing views rather than seek to understand them.

I will say for me I am NOT in love with this team. Something is off with it. I don't think the players are committed. But I think the GM assembled a talented team, and I place more of the blame on the players than the GM. At some point the talent you assemble has to execute.

But others are welcome to disagree, and that doesn't mean they aren't being less objective.

I agree, something is off and it’s hard to pinpoint year to year, especially with how freaking inconsistent this team has been. In the playoffs, out of the playoffs, in the playoffs, out of the playoffs.

I’m not in love with the build of this team either.

I do think as an organization the Flames haven’t been able to hire a top tier, or even above average head coach and that this has had a significant impact on the team. Darryl Sutter was the last outright good coach this team had. I also think the lack of quality goaltending has hurt this team every year since Kipper retired. Every damn year we make excuses for the goalies when the reality is we just haven’t had a top-15 goalie in almost a decade.

The players absolutely need to be held accountable, but the management does as well (and Tree openly discusses the fact that he’s ultimately responsible for everything). Until we get top-15 goaltending and have an above average head coach, the inconsistencies will continue. We’ll continue to be nothing more than a bubble team that falters in the playoffs every year (when we make it).

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

^Good post up until the end. I don't know why people need to assume just because they have a different view that they aren't being as objective. The reality is that we all have our biases. So assuming one view is more/less objective is more often than not - not particularly valid, and a way that folks dismiss opposing views rather than seek to understand them.

I will say for me I am NOT in love with this team. Something is off with it. I don't think the players are committed. But I think the GM assembled a talented team, and I place more of the blame on the players than the GM. At some point the talent you assemble has to execute.

But others are welcome to disagree, and that doesn't mean they aren't being less objective.

I fully agree, and I believe it started after the likes of Hudler and Englandd left. A lack of veteran players to keep the youth in check and continue to show how to grow to be a pro. You can’t place all of that burden on Gio, and I could be completely off, but I feel like the youth took over the room but possibly not in the best way.

When things were going great they were great. But when adversity hit they need some real veteran presence to persevere and work through the tough times.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I will say for me I am NOT in love with this team. Something is off with it. I don't think the players are committed. But I think the GM assembled a talented team, and I place more of the blame on the players than the GM. At some point the talent you assemble has to execute.

Similar things were said about the 06-09 Flames too. The core was hard on coaches was a comment often made.

It's one thing to assemble talent it's another to get it to deliver the results that you expect.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by MrMike

I fully agree, and I believe it started after the likes of Hudler and Englandd left. A lack of veteran players to keep the youth in check and continue to show how to grow to be a pro. You can’t place all of that burden on Gio, and I could be completely off, but I feel like the youth took over the room but possibly not in the best way.

When things were going great they were great. But when adversity hit they need some real veteran presence to persevere and work through the tough times.

In his last year Hudler set a very poor example. His give a crap level absolutely flatlined

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

In his last year Hudler set a very poor example. His give a crap level absolutely flatlined

He got old man. The signs were there the year before but he was buoyed by Gaudreau but he was in decline, he was never some superstar, he off dropped hard like players do. I believe he dealt with some injuries too, it's not all effort. These guys are pros. Sometimes they just aren't good enough. Hudler looked like he was skating in mud in his last season.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by MrMike

I fully agree, and I believe it started after the likes of Hudler and Englandd left. A lack of veteran players to keep the youth in check and continue to show how to grow to be a pro. You can’t place all of that burden on Gio, and I could be completely off, but I feel like the youth took over the room but possibly not in the best way.

When things were going great they were great. But when adversity hit they need some real veteran presence to persevere and work through the tough times.

Totally agree, Engelland for sure. They really seem to miss him. When the Flames beat Vancouver, he stepped up.

I think they were hoping veterans like Smith and Neal would bring veteran leadership but I recall them beaking at each other more than rallying the troops.

I imagine they hoped Lucic would bring some of what Engelland brought. But he seemed to have lost a ton of confidence in no good town, and doesn’t want to step up against division rivals because they are his friends. Geez, at least get in Mike Smith’s face.

All of this just makes me think it would have been great if they didn’t rush Jagr in, and he could have been the veteran leader. Seems to me that he made positive impact in the short time he was here.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

The idea that Feaster left Treliving with some quality pieces is a bit of a myth. Sure he’d collected a few nice offensive prospects but left the team lacking any defensive prospects, a goalie, or right handed shots.

He was on the job for 3 years and was replaced less than a year into the rebuild, what did you expect?
He left behind a few really good players, no bad contracts, no buyout penalties, a ton of cap space and most if not all of their draft picks. All of the dirty work had been done and Treliving got a clean slate to start with.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jacks

He was on the job for 3 years and was replaced less than a year into the rebuild, what did you expect?
He left behind a few really good players, no bad contracts, no buyout penalties, a ton of cap space and most if not all of their draft picks. All of the dirty work had been done and Treliving got a clean slate to start with.

It was an expansion team basically.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It was an expansion team basically.

I wish. If it was an expansion team it probably would have a couple division titles and been to the finals by now.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It was an expansion team basically.

Depends how you look at it.
The top 2 F and top 2 D are still the top line and pairing on today’s Flames. Backlund was a fine 2C

The top line Johnny- Monahan - Hudler was good. Very good. Hudler winning an award good.

As another poster mentioned, the team had no cap issues and tons of space. Clean slate

The D was also pretty good. Prime Gio and Brodie, Wideman putting up a lot of points, Russell blocking everything and also putting up 34 points. Engelland patrolling the bottom pairing and providing veteran leadership ..

A rag tag group on F otherwise, but Backlund and Glencross were decent middle sixers, Stajan a depth pro. Byron was a solid speedy player.

Yeah. Hartley really got a lot out of that roster. Tre must have hated having to keep him an extra year due to the Jack Adams

I can only imagine how horrible that team could have been if Johnny didn’t pan out, or if Tre had turfed Bob immediately and brought in hand picked coach Gully *shudder*

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

In his last year Hudler set a very poor example. His give a crap level absolutely flatlined

He kicked off his shoes at the awards show and never put em back on.

[Samonadreau]

There's tiers here.

Fletcher

Tre
Sutter
Coates

Burke
Feaster
Risebrough

Button

In those tiers you can make Arguements for each.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I wish. If it was an expansion team it probably would have a couple division titles and been to the finals by now.

Well not a VGK expansion team. A normal expansion team.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

He kicked off his shoes at the awards show and never put em back on.

Hudler was a beauty. Feaster's only good move aside from Cammi/Ramo

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Depends how you look at it.
The top 2 F and top 2 D are still the top line and pairing on today’s Flames. Backlund was a fine 2C

The top line Johnny- Monahan - Hudler was good. Very good. Hudler winning an award good.

As another poster mentioned, the team had no cap issues and tons of space. Clean slate

The D was also pretty good. Prime Gio and Brodie, Wideman putting up a lot of points, Russell blocking everything and also putting up 34 points. Engelland patrolling the bottom pairing and providing veteran leadership ..

A rag tag group on F otherwise, but Backlund and Glencross were decent middle sixers, Stajan a depth pro. Byron was a solid speedy player.

Yeah. Hartley really got a lot out of that roster. Tre must have hated having to keep him an extra year due to the Jack Adams

I can only imagine how horrible that team could have been if Johnny didn’t pan out, or if Tre had turfed Bob immediately and brought in hand picked coach Gully *shudder*

Good stuff in 2015 but 2016 set the record straight. I contend that most GMs coming into a rebuild are/were about as low on assets as the Flames in 2014/15. Some good peices sure but what team can't claim that? The 1993 Senators I guess.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Jacks

He was on the job for 3 years and was replaced less than a year into the rebuild, what did you expect?
He left behind a few really good players, no bad contracts, no buyout penalties, a ton of cap space and most if not all of their draft picks. All of the dirty work had been done and Treliving got a clean slate to start with.

Nm