Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[getbak]

I think the Hitmen could probably play about a third of their home games in a smaller venue and it wouldn't be a problem. I've been to some mid-week mid-season games where the crowd was pretty sparse.

36 regular season home games: 12 in the small arena, 24 in the big.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by InglewoodFan

One moronic thing from Davison is the comment that the the Roughnecks and Hitmen could play in the 5000 seater. Apparently unaware of the Necks drawing 9-11000 on average. And I am sure the Hitmen do better than 5000 on a regular basis.

9-11K on average with occasional much larger crowds.
And it isn't just about the gate. Cut the crowd and you cut the beer and concession revenue, which for the Roughnecks is significant.

Dumb suggestion to be sure.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by getbak

I think the Hitmen could probably play about a third of their home games in a smaller venue and it wouldn't be a problem. I've been to some mid-week mid-season games where the crowd was pretty sparse.

36 regular season home games: 12 in the small arena, 24 in the big.

But don't the Hitmen have like 5k+ season tickets due to the discount offered to Flames season ticket holders?

I think their smallest crowds are in the high 5000's, with a lot of them in the 6500-8000k range, and then larger crowds hitting 9+. With the Roughnecks being completely out in terms of a 5k building.


It would be a really tricky strategy even if they were close to 5k sometimes. They would have to schedule the smaller rink before the season, so what do they do - just pick their best guess as to the crappy turnout games?

What if the Hitmen are soaring and a Monday night, "crappy" draw was scheduled in the 5k, now 4 months later, 8000 fans want tickets?

[powderjunkie]

A new arena is a certainty, sooner or later (3 yrs or 20). While a lot of people like to characterize hosting 2026 as a certainty, there are a lot of variables that could torpedo it. My read is that the initial bid design is being done with this in mind to avoid compromising leverage related to the certain negotiation of an arena.

Scenario 1. If a bid is won and approved without explicitly stating a new arena (though I have little doubt that it has been channelled to IOC that it will be built), then the Flames could lose some leverage ("the Dome is good enough for the IOC, who are known to be sooooooo particular, why isn't it good enough for the Flames?").

Scenario 2. If the bid is unsuccessful, the negotiation positions are largely unchanged.


Including the arena at this point simply throws away all leverage. The Flames can't have it both ways - sitting on the sidelines/not taking any initiative completely undermines their assertions that a new arena is critical to their long term sustainability. King can't moan about not being included in the process, because the ball was already put back in his court. I am sure they would have been welcomed to participate (but not explicitly invited), but they chose to maintain radio silence.

If the Flames are seeking a Katz type of deal to develop the surrounding area (which I'm not 100% is true), they would have had much better luck if they stepped up with their own proposal for the Vic Park arena that killed two birds with one stone (ie. satisfied some requirements for an Olympic bid, such as housing). As it stands now, it is more likely that CMLC will be in the driver's seat, and CSEC has no one to blame but themselves for being passengers.

[Manhattanboy]

Two rumours, both of which are from friends who I consider credible:
- the City Committee has been meeting with CSEC on the arena and has made some progress on an event centre concept. So the good news is they are talking.
- Murray Edwards wants to increase his ownership stake and may have already struck a deal with one or more of his partners to acquire their interests. Problem is same source indicated he has informed Bettman that he wants to sell, that he doesn’t think there is a deal to be made locally and that he has already spoken to Tilman Fertitta, the owner of the Houston Rockets about a possible sale.
Ya inconsistent in certain respects. Anyway, for whatever it’s worth, thought I would pass on.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Two rumours, both of which are from friends who I consider credible:
- the City Committee has been meeting with CSEC on the arena and has made some progress on an event centre concept. So the good news is they are talking.
- Murray Edwards wants to increase his ownership stake and may have already struck a deal with one or more of his partners to acquire their interests. Problem is same source indicated he has informed Bettman that he wants to sell, that he doesn’t think there is a deal to be made locally and that he has already spoken to Tilman Fertitta, the owner of the Houston Rockets about a possible sale.
Ya inconsistent in certain respects. Anyway, for whatever it’s worth, thought I would pass on.

Murray Edward's wants to increase his ownership stake and then sell? Yep, this is all believable and makes sense...

Lets just all drop this pretense. The flames aren't moving. There have been lots of reports that the city has been making progress lately, removing any impetus (I have never really thought there was any anyways) for the nhl to keep threatening a move. It's much more likely that the BOG would force Murray to look for a local buyer first. If he is still threatening a move, then hes a bigger baby than previously imagined- the taxpayers of the city shouldn't have to subsidize his foray into the land development world. If theres a fair deal to be had then the city should be flexible, but the flames have not come close to proposing a fair deal yet, publicly at least.

[Strange Brew]

The Flames need the unspoken threat of moving to be somewhat credible in order to keep negotiations moving forward. May as well just accept it as a given.

Just curious though. Which Calgarians are likely to be interested in owning the club, knowing price tag will be north of half a billion USD?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Murray Edward's wants to increase his ownership stake and then sell? Yep, this is all believable and makes sense...

Lets just all drop this pretense. The flames aren't moving. There have been lots of reports that the city has been making progress lately, removing any impetus (I have never really thought there was any anyways) for the nhl to keep threatening a move. It's much more likely that the BOG would force Murray to look for a local buyer first. If he is still threatening a move, then hes a bigger baby than previously imagined- the taxpayers of the city shouldn't have to subsidize his foray into the land development world. If theres a fair deal to be had then the city should be flexible, but the flames have not come close to proposing a fair deal yet, publicly at least.

We don't really know if it's true that he wants to sell but if by chance it is true it certainly doesn't appear he's threatening to leave rather than simply making plans of leaving in the event they can't make it work in Calgary. He's not publicly saying anything so he's not making any threats. I certainly can't fault him for keeping his options open. It's his team after all not ours and if he's had enough of Nenshi's act then it is what it is. Flames would be a great pickup for Houston as they are in the middle of the rebuild and competitive with some good players in place.

[Major Major]

Good lord. There is no move. It is laughably undesirable from the league's point of view and, while that's the only thing that matters, there is no freaking way Edwards sells now. You'd think for all the Hard-Ons there are on this site for british Mur's business acumen, there would be an understanding that he wouldn't acquire all of these assets to sell them off at a low value.

He is acquiring them because the team is about to be worth substantially more.

[Robbob]

Yeah, I don't buy that he is buying other owners out to sell. I think it is more likely that he is buying out certain owners has probably more to do with life planning. Would not surprise me in the least if the rumours about buying out another owner was around Riddell.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Would not surprise me in the least if the rumours about buying out another owner was around Riddell.

I would be surprised if it wasn't. I mean it's not a big leap to think that Riddell's health was likely poor to the extent that he knew his time was near and that his heirs either didn't want to own his share or go through the BoG approval process so he decided to sell his share to one of his (already BoG approved) partners.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I would be surprised if it wasn't. I mean it's not a big leap to think that Riddell's health was likely poor to the extent that he knew his time was near and that his heirs either didn't want to own his share or go through the BoG approval process so he decided to sell his share to one of his (already BoG approved) partners.

You have to think the partnership agreement among the owners has provisions that allow for the purchase by the other partners of the interest of an owner who has passed away. That is, the estate of an owner does not automatically become a partner.

[SilverKast]

None of us have any idea if Edwards actually wants to sell the team. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't - it's not like he lets on one way or the other.

But you can bet ownership has at least looked into the possibility of moving the team to different cities. To at least look at alternative options in the event things don't turn out here the way they like - you know they'll be looking at all their options.

We seem to think that having the Flames here in Calgary is our god given right or something. We overlook the fact that usually sports teams are the plaything of wealthy owners, who can do with those teams whatever they like. It can definitely be a letdown, as we get attached to "our" team over the years. But when you're talking wealthy owners they didn't get that way by not looking out for themselves first.

Add in some US city throwing around silly money to get a team in there and it can be an easy way for a city like ours to wave goodbye to our local sports team when the owner feels like going for a better deal somewhere else.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Yeah, I don't buy that he is buying other owners out to sell. I think it is more likely that he is buying out certain owners has probably more to do with life planning. Would not surprise me in the least if the rumours about buying out another owner was around Riddell.

Very likely.

Some other minority stakes might also be willing to sell as well.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Good lord. There is no move. It is laughably undesirable from the league's point of view and, while that's the only thing that matters, there is no freaking way Edwards sells now.

Interesting how definitive one can be regarding the decision of another.

[Ozy_Flame]

If the Flames left I take it that would leave the Hitmen in limbo too? Would CSEC dissolve without the Flames?

[Fuzz]

Maybe the city should just buy the team...How much?

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Interesting how definitive one can be regarding the decision of another.

Who's decision is it though? It is exactly this type of "shred of doubt" thinking that froths the masses into a panic. Play it out logically. Who benefits from a flames sale and relocation at this point? I feel the answer is clear as day... No one

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Who's decision is it though? It is exactly this type of "shred of doubt" thinking that froths the masses into a panic. Play it out logically. Who benefits from a flames sale and relocation at this point? I feel the answer is clear as day... No one

Teams are bought and sold and relocated. It is somewhat amusing that there is this perception that the Flames are unique within the NHL. Brian Burke publicly said without a new arena the team would leave without any fanfare.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe the city should just buy the team...How much?

Infinity dollars would be my guess. The public aren't 'good ol' boys' plus I imagine the NHL would be terrified at the prospect of their internal machinations becoming subject to a FOIP request.