Expensive Press Level Seats

[RM14]

Is Face Value even a real thing anymore. Currently there are two way for fans to buy tickets from the team:

1. Pay for all 41 games or a game pack
2. Buy single game tickets off of ticketmaster - These are priced in a variety of levels depending the value of the game. (deemed market price)

[Sec218]

Originally Posted by RM14

Is Face Value even a real thing anymore. Currently there are two way for fans to buy tickets from the team:

1. Pay for all 45 games or a game pack
2. Buy single game tickets off of ticketmaster - These are priced in a variety of levels depending the value of the game. (deemed market price)

Unfortunately, STHs are stuck paying full price for 4 pre-season games, even when the team is in China. plus, ticketmaster doesn't allowed re-sale pre-season tickets on their main site.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Not at all what I said.

I said the Buy/Sell forum at face value was why this site was referred to me to start with. So if I never come and create an account, and start posting to be able to take advantage of the buy and sell thread then I probably don't ever come to CalgaryPuck and see how great it is.

Of course I would never leave now (it's a bit of an addiction) but I think it's a good incentive to get people to sign up here to start with.

I think the bolded statement above is argument for removing the rule. It will simply bring more flames fans to the site. I highly doubt out of towners and fans of other teams will come to the site looking for tickets.

[bizaro86]

8

Originally Posted by ken0042

For the record, I don't mind this conversation coming up from time to time. The challenge is that we have to find the answer that is most fair to most of our members.

The biggest concern I have with posting tickets over face value is that we become a place for scalpers (or professional sellers) to set up shop. There is something to be said for the relative level of comfort we have in dealing with other CPers for things like ticket sales, and that would be lost if there were a lot of scalpers. We could bring in a minimum post count again, but that often brought people to post "lol" in every thread to get their count up.

So I am open to suggestions. Be it status quo, or a change that is overall "better" for the community.

I think above face value is a community friendly option, because it will bring more tickets to the site. I know personally, I'm not selling my premium games here for face when I lose money on lots of pre-season/non-premium games each year.

I agree professional scalpers isn't what you want either though.

How would the community feel about a separate sub-forum for above face premium games? Buyers and sellers could both save fees, and keep tickets in the hands of flames fans. Make a high bar to post in the new sub forum. I would say ideally it should be based on post count and join date to avoid the one word post in every thread crew. Maybe 1/2/5/10k posts and 5 years? Make it a high enough bar that it isn't worth it for professional scalpers, and all you'll get is CPers with extra tickets.

[The Boy Wonder]

Or you know, you could just set a minimum post limit to sell tickets above face value or something. or yeah a separate sub would work too.

It wouldn't be hard to spot the scalpers and would be easy to remove them

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Or you know, you could just set a minimum post limit to sell tickets above face value or something. or yeah a separate sub would work too.

It wouldn't be hard to spot the scalpers and would be easy to remove them

I'm probably equally good at tech administration and interpretive dance, but I thought it might be easier to have a sub forum, since then the rule set could just be "can't post in sub-forum without xx posts and yy join date." If it's in the regular ticket exchange, I could see that ending up being a bunch of work for the mods to try and determine "is this over face" and "does this person qualify."

[MotoRacer]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

NHL Ticket Exchange does not allow you to list a ticket below the price you paid. So if you just want to dump a ticket to get *some* value out of it becuase you can't get full value, you have to go the route of Stub Hub et al.



And since a number of teams have partnerships and advertising relationships with Stub Hub, my bet is that this distinction is deliberate.

Ah that makes sense... now I understand how stubhub is so successful.

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

What rows? The first 3 rows are the best seats in the building.

Lol. Right.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Lol leading the charge, Squiggs you poor thing.

If you want to keep wasting your time year after year bringing this topic up be my guest it’s been working out great for you so far.

I have 4 green seats I could easily sell for above face value and would never think to try making money off the backs of the rest of CP members.

It’s unfortunate you think it’s your birth right and every season at some point the drum of your first world problems starts beating.

I don’t see this one changing, so maybe sit back in that million dollar house on the island and let this one go.

I didn't bring up the topic. I'm post #26 in the thread. Others brought it up, but I joined in the discussion. I've got lots of time. Don't worry about how I spend it. I also don't need your permission to talk about it.



Remember when people were against the zipper merge? People continued to bring it up. Now almost everyone here agrees the zipper merge is correct. Change doesn't happen immediately. Change can take time, and an open dialogue is key. There are now more people open to the idea of allowing tickets to be sold over face value, including moderators. There have been suggestions on how to regulate it. It may not happen this week, but I'm optimistic we see it in the near future.



In no way do I think it's my birthright to sell tickets above face value on CP. This is one more instance, in an incredibly long list, where you are wrong. FYI, as we live in Canada, all of our problems are first world problems. I've also never said it was a problem. I've mentioned many times before that I don't have a problem selling on ticketmaster, a fact you can't wrap your head around.


Just because you don't see it changing, doesn't mean it won't. I also don't live on an island, and there is no such thing as a million dollar house in my neighbourhood.

More often than not yes. I don’t think anyone has an issue with people recouping face value of seats.

In my opinion I’m the lucky one to have season tickets, if I can’t own them without “scalping them” for greater than face value maybe I shouldn’t have them.

I follow the rules of the board, choosing not to “stomp my feet” in self interest.

So it's okay to sell for above what you paid, just as long as it's not above the arbitrary number printed on the ticket? That's akin to speeding down the Deerfoot, but complaining about people going faster than you, except speeding is illegal and selling above face value is not.


I also follow the rules of the board. I don't post any tickets here above face value. I list them on other sites that permit me to, and I follow their rules. I don't stomp my feet. I have discussions about things I feel would benefit the board. As I've said many times, there are games I look to get a certain price. If I can get that price here, and a CP member would be able to spend much less buying the tickets here as opposed to ticketmaster or stubhub, then that looks like a win for all. If other STHs are also allowed to list tickets above face value, then the supply will reduce the prices. It might even lead to me selling for less than I could on ticketmaster. I'm fine if that happens. No one should ever feel bad for me if I can't get a price I desire.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Not at all what I said.

I misunderstood what you said. Apologies.

[bcneil]

Originally Posted by ST20

This would be ideal. Stubhub introduced GST on both sales and purchases on their site for Canadian and I imagine ticketmaster is going to follow suit since this is a governmental requirement. If anyone thinks, Stubhub and ticketmaster will lower their fees based on the goodness of their heart are dreaming. Allowing actual free market sales on this site will be beneficial for both season ticket holders and fans that want to attend a gate at a reasonable price. Very few games will go above face value anyways... We can keep dollars in the pockets of fans and not these middlemen companies!

They introduced GST on Stubhub FEES not the sales price.

[MrCallahan]

Originally Posted by Sec218

Unfortunately, STHs are stuck paying full price for 4 pre-season games, even when the team is in China. plus, ticketmaster doesn't allowed re-sale pre-season tickets on their main site.

Are you sure about this? I have my pre-season tickets posted on the NHL Tickets exchange thing right now...

[Sec218]

Originally Posted by MrCallahan

Are you sure about this? I have my pre-season tickets posted on the NHL Tickets exchange thing right now...

Yes that's true, but they are not shown on the main view map page along with the regular ticketmaster seats. You have to go the NHL Exchange page on ticketsnow.com to see them. During the regular season the re-sale seats that you post on NHL Exchange are also seen on the main map view page on the ticketmaster.

[MrCallahan]

Originally Posted by Sec218

Yes that's true, but they are not shown on the main view map page along with the regular ticketmaster seats. You have to go the NHL Exchange page on ticketsnow.com to see them. During the regular season the re-sale seats that you post on NHL Exchange are also seen on the main map view page on the ticketmaster.

ohhh, gotcha! Didn't realize that!

[squiggs96]

I listed 4 tickets to the Oilers game on November 17th on Ticketmaster. My price I wanted to take home was $100 per ticket, or $200 per pair. Ticketmaster listed the tickets at $112 per ticket, so ticketmaster is effectively charging me a 12% fee to list. That's fine. Ticketmaster also charges the purchaser a $24.36 per ticket charge to purchase the tickets. The final purchase price by the purchaser was $545.44. I get the $400 I was after, and Ticketmaster receives $145.44 for facilitating the transaction.

If I was able to list my tickets here, I'd still be requesting the $100 per ticket price. Buyers would be able to pay $400 for 4 tickets. They would be able to save $145.44 by purchasing them here, instead of purchasing them at Ticketmaster. I just don't get how people are against this. Sellers still get the price they are looking for; buyers get a lower price; there are more tickets available to CP members. This seems like a win-win-win.

The face value for this game is $84 + $6.25 in Ticketmaster fees. Ticketmaster fees are not allowed to be charged on CP.

If people are truly against selling above face value, which changes each game, then shouldn't they also be against selling below face value? If I'm selling a ticket on CP for $50 to a Nashville game and $100 per ticket for an Oilers game, that averages to $75 per ticket. That's below face value. There are less premium games throughout the year. I would say of the 41 home games there are 13 premium games and 28 non premium games. If I were to sell all 41 games the 13 premium games would be about $100 per ticket and the 28 non premium games would be $50 per ticket. This would mean total revenue of $2,700 per ticket for all 41 games, or $65.85 per ticket. The lowest tier game for my section (green) has a face value of $66 + 6.25 in ticketmaster fees. If I sell at the above breakdown, then I've sold for less than face value, based on the lowest tier. This is well below face value of all 41 games when you add in the 3 higher tiers.

I think it's hypocritical to only focus on, and shame, sellers for taking a premium price for premium games, but not look at how many more games get discounted. When you look at the season as a whole, it still comes in under face value, which is still an arbitrary number.

[Fire]

I have no problem with people scalping tickets and no problem with CP not wanting it on the site. Maybe the solution is to give CP a $10 fee (donation) if you sell over face value. Lot less than ticketmaster charges you and it helps CP.

[Sec218]

Excellent post squiggs.

[GullFoss]

Outside of premium games for Green and Black sections, is this even an issue? I don't think she market was there strong enough to sell any games in the white section above face value.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

When Selling season tickets on CP, all I care about is STH cost. I don’t care what ticketmaster charges, what tickets sell for on kijiji or stubhub. To me it’s more about the sellers, not making sure buyers are paying market price. STH already get a deep discount compared to the public price. Selling for FV should be enough of a profit.

Frame it all you want as a deal compared to ticketmaster. Really what we should be talking about is the profit for sellers. CP should not be in the business of maximizing seller profits under the guise of “but it’s not as much of a ripoff as ticketmaster”.

Scalping tickets on CP opens up the site for people to use CP to make money. More money than they already make selling their tickets for FV. I’m totally cool with the site not being used for that purpose.

Is ticketmaster ticket exchange a massive scam? Yes. Ticketmaster in general is a scam. But I don’t see that as a good reason to open up CP to scalping. Just because other avenues are ripoffs doesn’t mean we need to compete with them. Season ticket holders don’t pay ticketmaster fees anyway.

I’ve never understood the reasoning that since some games get sold for below face or even below cost that we should allow scalping. When I buy season tickets I buy them. I understand the cost. If I can only afford them if I can sell enough games to pay for me to see 10 games for free, then maybe I shouldn’t have season tickets. When I can’t afford them maybe I ask for an at cost partner on CP. And if I can no longer afford tickets because no one will buy my tickets above my cost, then maybe I give up my tickets. Does that mean less tickets on CP for cheap? Maybe but I didn’t become a STH to be a charity just like how I didn’t do it for a profit.

I’ve always viewed it as passing along some of my STH benefits to other fans. CP doesn’t owe me an avenue to maximize profit. It’s for me to easily sell tickets to real fans while making a tidy profit (usually) or break even. If there is a sunk cost because the team sucks, then that’s the risk I take when I invested in the team.

When I’ve sold my season tickets on CP, I always make enough that I get to go to about 10 games per year for free. And I never sold tickets anywhere else for above face. CP only. I always felt like I owed that to the community. Never that the community owed it to me to let me make money off fellow posters.

Did people get some deals? Sure. But I got tons of free hockey from it. I never ever thought about how it sucked that I didn’t make enough profit on my tickets. I don’t need to get paid to go watch the Flames (even if it feels like I should from time to time).

[Toonage]

I bought 2 tickets off Ticket Exchange for a game against Chicago and they ended up being cheaper than if I bought the door price. So not always the worst option. Shout out to the STH that put those up at STH price to start with. Wasn't greedy and I got the seats I wanted without waiting for general onsale.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

When Selling season tickets on CP, all I care about is STH cost. I don’t care what ticketmaster charges, what tickets sell for on kijiji or stubhub. To me it’s more about the sellers, not making sure buyers are paying market price. STH already get a deep discount compared to the public price. Selling for FV should be enough of a profit.

Frame it all you want as a deal compared to ticketmaster. Really what we should be talking about is the profit for sellers. CP should not be in the business of maximizing seller profits under the guise of “but it’s not as much of a ripoff as ticketmaster”.

Scalping tickets on CP opens up the site for people to use CP to make money. More money than they already make selling their tickets for FV. I’m totally cool with the site not being used for that purpose.

This isnt really about "how do we make sure scalpers don't rip us off?" and more a question of - "In this CP community of ours, how do we make a system that's fair for buyers and sellers"

I think in theory your attitude is the one that most sellers have. But I think people end up with different end points starting with the same attitude you described above.

For example, I'm paying $6900 for season tickets, which is $163/pair for 41 games or $153/pair for 45 games. So whats the right value for cost? Do I include the preseason games or not? And if I include them, do I assign them the same value as a regular season game?

Next, we have to come to the conclusion that $163/pair is a bundled price, whereas value per ticket differs based on month, night of the week, start time, quality of team, popularity of team.

So I think the frustration stems from the fact that face value is a made up number. It's not cost and its not market value. Some tickets are worth much less than face value. Some are worth much more. And by only letting members sell at a maximum of face value, its biased against sellers. And in the current environment, where selling every game individually from a STH package would probably result in a significant loss vs the STH cost...this just acts to further penalise STHs.

I honestly believe the solution is two fold:

1) When there is a STH waitlist or average attendance is 98% plus for the current season, implement max sell price = face value

2) When there is no STH waitlist AND average attendance has fallen below 98% for the current season, implement no max sell price.