Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Don’t hate Bennett at all. Actually bought his jersey, but I’m more interested in wins at this point then protecting my own personal feelings for players. Bennett still has a lot of raw abilities and I’d re-sign him long term as a bottom 6 forward if he was willing to, but I’m not sure that’s going to happen.

As for Treliving, I think the moves were a scathing indictment on the performance of the bottom 6 forwards. It looked like one of the league’s worst and contributed significantly to the failure that was last season. It’s also the same reason Neal and Lindholm were tested on the top line exclusively in the preseason whereas Bennett and Jankowski were paired together on the bottom 6 the whole way. They clearly had a plan and I don’t think Bennett was ever considered for that role.

Your suggesting I'm protecting my own personal feelings?

Please.

The stats suggest they had some chemistry, created some chances, but were only left together for four games.

Was that enough? Longer than some lines get for sure, but certainly not to the point where you could call it final.

Bennett and Jankowski certainly started the year locked to the fourth line, I agree with you there. But two games in it was Bennett who was plucked to move up as Peters likely saw what the numbers suggest from last season; Bennett is producing more with less than most forwards on the roster.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

feels like some posters ahve been saying this for years.

Which I think fits with the mental side of things.

I'd imagine a lot of forced plays and one on ones come from trying to do too much.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Which I think fits with the mental side of things.

I'd imagine a lot of forced plays and one on ones come from trying to do too much.

Also I would say that playing with relatively unskilled linemates, he may be more of the mindset that he had to drive things.

Seems like something that is coachable.

You know, with a good coach

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah, at a similar rate that Bennett produced with Backlund and Frolik, etc. I said their first years were comparable. You forgot Cammalleri as well.

You know how many points Monahan got last year when Johnny was not on the ice? 2

Well that's not really fair is it - they played together 100% of the time until Monahan got shelved. The only points that would come otherwise would be on a line change or a combination that was so infrequent it didn't even make this chart, so that his "mere" 2 points (4.4% of his total) is a vastly bigger percentage than his playing time without Gaudreau (less than 1%):

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...s/sean-monahan

How many did Gaudreau get when Monahan wasn't on the ice? 7 ES, which was about 10%. How much time did he spend away from Monahan? About 6%. So that's also good, but not quite as good as Monahan's production without Gaudreau

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Every player is affected by their linemates.

Monahan and Bennett had similar first years playing with quality line mates.

Year 2, Monahan draws Gaudreau (a superstar level player who was a top player out of the gate) and Hudler (a 55-60 point pace guy), top line minutes, PP time, and flourished
Year 2, Bennett gets guys like Brouwer, Versteeg, Chiasson, 3rd line minutes, no PP time

How can people continue with the argument that it is all on him and not on the coach / line mates / situation / opportunity?

As I said, unless he physically took the lineup card and crayon away from Gulutzan, he was not going to be put in a position to succeed.

Except Bennett did get PP time in year 2 and actually saw an increase in PP time in year 3. All people did last season was rip Troy Brouwer for being on the PP and rightfully so I might add, but he actually out scored Bennett on the PP despite playing less PP time! I get it, Brouwer was what he was and Bennett is a young player with potential, but at some point you have to call a spade a spade. He’s had opportunities, albeit not as much as Monahan, but Sam Bennett hasn’t seized on them like a Sean Monahan or even a Micheal Ferland.

The organization does not have it out for Sam Bennett, they want him to succeed. They dafted him to be a driver of play, so the organization gave him that chance to drive his own line playing against weaker competition and it didn’t turn out well enough. So people blamed his linemates and the coach, but if he played his way up the line up like Ferland was able to do with just as bad of linemates, then wouldn’t that have happened already over the course of the last 3+ years?

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Also I would say that playing with relatively unskilled linemates, he may be more of the mindset that he had to drive things.

Seems like something that is coachable.

You know, with a good coach

...and a coachable player. There are two parts to the solution.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ Right, GiofirPM. Fair. Thing is, they were stapled together. Monahan plays with a guy who holds and protects the puck and drives play.

Interesting data point there
Bennett with Monahan - 4.8 percent of ES time, 7.5 percent of points
Statistically insignificant, for practical purposes

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Except Bennett did get PP time in year 2 and actually saw an increase in PP time in year 3. All people did last season was rip Troy Brouwer for being on the PP and rightfully so I might add, but he actually out scored Bennett on the PP despite playing less PP time! I get it, Brouwer was what he was and Bennett is a young player with potential, but at some point you have to call a spade a spade. He’s had opportunities, albeit not as much as Monahan, but Sam Bennett hasn’t seized on them like a Sean Monahan or even a Micheal Ferland.

The organization does not have it out for Sam Bennett, they want him to succeed. They dafted him to be a driver of play, so the organization gave him that chance to drive his own line playing against weaker competition and it didn’t turn out well enough. So people blamed his linemates and the coach, but if he played his way up the line up like Ferland was able to do with just as bad of linemates, then wouldn’t that have happened already over the course of the last 3+ years?

I for one don't really have a problem with what the Flames have done with Bennett.

He hasn't gotten it done and that's on him.

But I do think there are things in his game that are emerging that may prove out to be worth the patience. If that's the case the Flames have another young contributing forward on the way and that's the best for everyone.

But at some point the production has to come to, as Flash pointed out goals and assists.

It may never come, or ... if the underlying numbers point to a direction, he may have found his overall game quietly with the production now to come.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

I almost can't wait for him to be traded, just so all of the Bennett haters can find someone else to rag on in order to make themselves feel better about their lives.

Every team whether Oilers who were bad for 10+ years or cup winning teams have underachieving or overpriced players that fans dislike. If Bennett improves or leaves there’ll be someone else. It was Brouwer last season. A lot of reasons to be underwhelmed by the Flames highest draft pick with high expectations. Not a shocker by fans reaction.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Your suggesting I'm protecting my own personal feelings?

Please.

The stats suggest they had some chemistry, created some chances, but were only left together for four games.

Was that enough? Longer than some lines get for sure, but certainly not to the point where you could call it final.

Bennett and Jankowski certainly started the year locked to the fourth line, I agree with you there. But two games in it was Bennett who was plucked to move up as Peters likely saw what the numbers suggest from last season; Bennett is producing more with less than most forwards on the roster.

No im not, you’re accusing me of having a bias against a player and I’m just saying that even if I did have partiality to a certain player, I’d have no problem calling then out when they’re underperforming.

All I know is that despite what the stats suggest, I personally did not like that line together. Bennett had 1 good game from what I remember against Arizona, then the rest was very blah.

There was one very good month that I remember Bennett having and that was the end of November to December where he actually played with Jankowski and together they carried the team. Then for whatever reason, their performances fell off a cliff afterwards.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No im not, you’re accusing me of having a bias against a player and I’m just saying that even if I did have partiality to a certain player, I’d have no problem calling then out when they’re underperforming.

All I know is that despite what the stats suggest, I personally did not like that line together. Bennett had 1 good game from what I remember against Arizona, then the rest was very blah.

There was one very good month that I remember Bennett having and that was the end of November to December where he actually played with Jankowski and together they carried the team. Then for whatever reason, their performances fell off a cliff afterwards.

It was a good game except if you were Johnny's tooth.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

There was one very good month that I remember Bennett having and that was the end of November to December where he actually played with Jankowski and together they carried the team. Then for whatever reason, their performances fell off a cliff afterwards.

Bennett was playing pretty tall when they had Jagr on the other side. That was around that time.

Consistent with the mental boost Bingo thinks he needs

[The Boy Wonder]

All I know is that if Bennett keeps playing the way he has so far this season over the course of the year, he will get points, and he will be a POS to play against. Which is exactly what the flames need.

In my honest opinion it is as much Sam's fault as anyones for the past two years but I think the coaching approach, GG being "hands-off", not entering dressing room after games, etc. probably wasn't the best environment for Bennett.

It is early but I think having a coach who lays out expectations clearly and holds players accountable, as we have seen so far, albeit small sample size, looks like it could really benefit Bennett.

[Flash Walken]

Posted this earlier but this is an itch that needs scratching:

For the advanced stats nerds, are there any players in the league who have as good scoring/possession/chances numbers as Bennett that also struggle to the same degree to put up tangible points?

If so, who are they?

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Posted this earlier but this is an itch that needs scratching:

For the advanced stats nerds, are there any players in the league who have as good scoring/possession/chances numbers as Bennett that also struggle to the same degree to put up tangible points?

If so, who are they?

Kris Russel???

[Justin]

The time to trade Bennett is now. It's at the point now where if he regresses anymore than his value falls to unrecoverable levels and he'd end up being waived.

As a straight up trade I imagine he'd fetch an early 3rd round pick. Package him for an early 2nd +.

Bennett's a Chris Bourque type guy. Exceptional AHL player but can't produce at the NHL level.

Chris Bourque stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=78707

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Posted this earlier but this is an itch that needs scratching:

For the advanced stats nerds, are there any players in the league who have as good scoring/possession/chances numbers as Bennett that also struggle to the same degree to put up tangible points?

If so, who are they?

I was just trying to look at this actually.

Last year the only other players to have 150+ Individual Scoring Chances, and 60+ individual high danger chances, and score 10 goals or less at Even Strength were:

- Brock Mcginn (CAR)
- Tomas Hertl (SJ)
- Michael Backlund (CAL)
- Alex Tuch (VGK)

The average ES Goals for players that averaged between 150-180 Individual Scoring Chances, and 60-90 Individual High Danger Chances was 17 - or 7 more goals than Bennett was able to put up last season.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Justin

The time to trade Bennett is now. It's at the point now where if he regresses anymore than his value falls to unrecoverable levels and he'd end up being waived.

As a straight up trade I imagine he'd fetch an early 3rd round pick. Package him for an early 2nd +.

Bennett's a Chris Bourque type guy. Exceptional AHL player but can't produce at the NHL level.

Chris Bourque stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=78707

Chris Bourque had 8 points in 51 NHL games in his career.

Bennett has never ever played an AHL game, let alone be a career AHL guy.

The two aren't even remotely comparable.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I was just trying to look at this actually.

Last year the only other players to have 150+ Individual Scoring Chances, and 60+ individual high danger chances, and score 10 goals or less at Even Strength were:

- Brock Mcginn (CAR)
- Tomas Hertl (SJ)
- Michael Backlund (CAL)
- Alex Tuch (VGK)

The average ES Goals for players that averaged between 150-180 Individual Scoring Chances, and 60-90 Individual High Danger Chances was 17 - or 7 more goals than Bennett was able to put up last season.

Wow, and Bennett scored less than all of them.

Is Bennett the worst finisher in the NHL?

[Shazam]

He's got until the trade deadline to perform to whatever expectations management has of him. After that he's trade fodder.