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Old 08-28-2019, 12:00 PM   #461
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It's a safe place to inject, getting high isn't actually what most addicts do, they mostly use not to get sick.

Short of suspending the constitution and locking people in addiction camps access to force them into sobriety optional treatment is all we can offer anyone in any circumstance, all we are debating here is what is the most effective way we can offer optional treatment.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:01 PM   #462
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It's a safe place to inject, getting high isn't actually what most addicts do, they mostly use not to get sick.

Short of suspending the constitution and locking people in addiction camps access to optional treatment is all we can offer anyone in any circumstance, all we are debating here is what is the most effective way we can offer optional treatment.
Yep, I know. It is a place where staff can give clean injection gear, monitor and prevent overdoses, and do front-line public health and treatment referrals.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:03 PM   #463
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A place to get high. Really?
You just can't quit? I stopped responding to your cherry picking and lame personal jabs a while ago. Go eat some lunch, take a walk and calm down. I'm clearly not in any way arguing what you are (very poorly) trying to frame my comments as.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:03 PM   #464
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Yes, I agree it is certainly reasonable to not want these sites in your neighborhood and people dismissing that argument because the stats say everything is fine is just downright silly.

There are many people in these crowds that have gone down unimaginable roads to end up where they are at so I do feel very badly for the majority of them. I am critical of the way we are dealing with the problem and labeling it a success, but it would be one of the tragedies of our generation if we simply turned our backs on those in need of help. One of these users could be your bother, sister, son or daughter and I'd want to know we all did better than just give them access to optional treatment and a place to get high. Not good enough.
Addictions treatment is only one of many medical services these places provide. Tuberculosis treatment, as well as other infectious diseases are working with SIS to access otherwise difficult populations to work with. A SIS is a healthcare service, just like an STD clinic. Sure you might have a moral objection to why someone might need to use this service, but it does not impact the fact that Canadians deserve to have treatment for their diseases.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:12 PM   #465
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You just can't quit? I stopped responding to your cherry picking and lame personal jabs a while ago. Go eat some lunch, take a walk and calm down. I'm clearly not in any way arguing what you are (very poorly) trying to frame my comments as.
I would recommend spending some time educating yourself on the purpose of the Safe Consumption Services available across Alberta and consider why it would be an inhumane mistake to shut them all down.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:15 PM   #466
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You just can't quit? I stopped responding to your cherry picking and lame personal jabs a while ago. Go eat some lunch, take a walk and calm down. I'm clearly not in any way arguing what you are (very poorly) trying to frame my comments as.
It was a direct quote of a sentence that has no place in this discussion. Cherry picked or not, it says a lot.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:15 PM   #467
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I've already posted a fairly strong analysis of the data. That is enough, as far as I am concerned. If you aren't even willing to engage with the data beyond a basis anecdotal protest, then what else do we have to say to each other?
There are certain issues IMO with the data that's out there.

1. The data is not all encompassing. As far as I know, it's not like the community is calling in everything that is happening. There's a ton of stuff that are not reported, but are still significant and real increases of occurrences in the surrounding area. I'm pretty sure CPS isn't reporting all the data as well.

2. The data discussed was about the area 250M around the SIS. Have you considered the context of that?

North: 1.5 blocks (in between 10th and 11th Ave)
East: 2 blocks essentially to the Beltliner (All of Memorial Park)
South: 2.5 blocks (Essentially to Red's Diner)
West: 2 blocks (Just shy of the park where Lougheed house is location)

A 4 x 4 block radius is what the data is pointing at. I feel like it's missing data from a significant amount of activity beyond that radius. While it's probably true that a lot of the activity is concentrated in that 4x4 radius, there's still a significant amount of activity if you added another 250-500M of radius.

3. Due to the newness of the SIS, there was a shallow pool of data until only recently. We are only starting to hit the solid bulk of data now that a longer duration has elapsed.

Even if the data says there's a decrease from previous, it's like merely nicking off the tip of the iceberg that was plopped into the community. You might as well be saying, "Hey this stock you hold increased 10% today" after an over drop of 90%. It's still way down.

4. Data vs anecdotal. While I get that those who don't live in the area must mostly rely on data to understand what's going on, but that doesn't mean that the shift based on the data is negligible. Forest Lawn probably in Calgary is literally one of the safest communities in the entire world statistically speaking. Does that mean there's no significant reason to not consider that community when looking for a place to live? (Apologies to those who live in Forest Lawn).

We had a reasonable understanding where our community was ranked quality of life wise. We then watched our quality of life tumble faster than a bottle at a carnival game. A good combination of data and anecdotal give a more balanced understanding of the situation.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:35 PM   #468
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I would like to mention that it is just as hard to understand the situation from within the community as it is outside of the community. Perhaps, we being so close to the situation makes it hard to see things clearly in some ways that those who are removed from the situation can see clearly.

It's also hard at times to stay on track without letting emotions run awry. Comments and opinions are perhaps over simplified, which causes confusion and misunderstanding.

I think no matter what opinion you have, most of us will agree that there must be an option that is acceptable to the majority of all parties involved.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:35 PM   #469
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If the surrounding community is going to continue to be treated like a nuisance, then screw the rest of ya'll, get the SIS out of there. This would be unfortunate because it is a valuable resource to the city and the Chumir is a location that makes a ton of sense. I really don't think it's unreasonable for the community wanting to feel like an equal partner, rather than a beaten spouse in the relationship. The smallest of steps have been made towards appeasing the community, but no where close to what should have been done and what needs to be done to achieve this.
It's almost like people as a collective (and also the individuals that speak loudest) aren't capable of holding opinions that aren't polarized. All good or all bad. If you're not in either of those camps, then one or both camps just lump you in with the other camp.

I'm sorry that you've had this experience. I'm about 400-450m away, which the statistics show makes quite a large difference so this is something I have no lived understanding of.

In your opinion, what would amount to positive changes for the surrounding community without reducing SCS efficacy? What would make you and other residents in the immediate area happy to keep the SCS where it is?
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Old 08-28-2019, 01:42 PM   #470
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1. The data is not all encompassing. As far as I know, it's not like the community is calling in everything that is happening. There's a ton of stuff that are not reported, but are still significant and real increases of occurrences in the surrounding area. I'm pretty sure CPS isn't reporting all the data as well.
If you read the CPS report, they said that they are reporting all data that has been called in, as well as all CPS activity. If something is happening that is illegal, according to you, you should be calling it in.

Quote:
2. The data discussed was about the area 250M around the SIS. Have you considered the context of that?

North: 1.5 blocks (in between 10th and 11th Ave)
East: 2 blocks essentially to the Beltliner (All of Memorial Park)
South: 2.5 blocks (Essentially to Red's Diner)
West: 2 blocks (Just shy of the park where Lougheed house is location)
How far do you want to move the goalposts? At some point, you are going to have to admit two things: 1) that even with the slight bump in crime since the recession, levels are still lower than they were 10-15 years ago, and 2) that the SIS is responding to an overall opioid crisis, the roots of which go far deeper than the immediate community experience.

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A 4 x 4 block radius is what the data is pointing at. I feel like it's missing data from a significant amount of activity beyond that radius. While it's probably true that a lot of the activity is concentrated in that 4x4 radius, there's still a significant amount of activity if you added another 250-500M of radius.
If you read the report, CPS made that distinction, and noted that overall crime was still lower than it was 10-15 years ago with the exception of trespassing and vehicle break-ins. They are responding to this with more foot patrols and officer presence through the downtown.

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3. Due to the newness of the SIS, there was a shallow pool of data until only recently. We are only starting to hit the solid bulk of data now that a longer duration has elapsed.
Quote:
All data looks significantly positive, and fits within a much larger data set from around the world.

Even if the data says there's a decrease from previous, it's like merely nicking off the tip of the iceberg that was plopped into the community. You might as well be saying, "Hey this stock you hold increased 10% today" after an over drop of 90%. It's still way down.

4. Data vs anecdotal. While I get that those who don't live in the area must mostly rely on data to understand what's going on, but that doesn't mean that the shift based on the data is negligible. Forest Lawn probably in Calgary is literally one of the safest communities in the entire world statistically speaking. Does that mean there's no significant reason to not consider that community when looking for a place to live? (Apologies to those who live in Forest Lawn).

We had a reasonable understanding where our community was ranked quality of life wise. We then watched our quality of life tumble faster than a bottle at a carnival game. A good combination of data and anecdotal give a more balanced understanding of the situation.
Cities aren't little amber fossils that crystallize and preserve your community in perpetuity forever. They change, peak and fall, react and respond to all of the immense forces that push and pull a society along.

Better to be proactive, then withdraw.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:46 PM   #471
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It's almost like people as a collective (and also the individuals that speak loudest) aren't capable of holding opinions that aren't polarized. All good or all bad. If you're not in either of those camps, then one or both camps just lump you in with the other camp.

I'm sorry that you've had this experience. I'm about 400-450m away, which the statistics show makes quite a large difference so this is something I have no lived understanding of.

In your opinion, what would amount to positive changes for the surrounding community without reducing SCS efficacy? What would make you and other residents in the immediate area happy to keep the SCS where it is?
Wexford place is where my POV comes from. It is literally one of the closest buildings to the Chumir. I moved from there a little while ago, but I'm still in the area relatively frequently since my cousin's unit is still there and I also do recreational activities at Beltline Aquatic. I am torn on the issue and I agree with your comment that many feel you have to be for it or against the SIS. I'd really love to see better harmony between the community and the SIS, but I don't have the energy or desire anymore to be part of the solution. The whole ordeal has been exhausting and it's tiresome feeling like a nuisance.

I've mentioned a few times that police presence would have helped a lot. To be fair, an increase in police presence is probably not going to cut down the crime a huge, but at least nearby residents don't have to feel abandoned etc. It's probably like those sound barriers by major roads. They apparently only cut down noise by 10-30%, but the complaints by residents that have them installed decreases by more than half.

That being said, I don't know if such a solution would even be as effective anyways. Many who were upset are long gone and those that are still around are so tired and fed up with everything they either just grin and bear it, or are planning exit strategies as well.


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If you read the CPS report, they said that they are reporting all data that has been called in, as well as all CPS activity. If something is happening that is illegal, according to you, you should be calling it in.

How far do you want to move the goalposts? At some point, you are going to have to admit two things: 1) that even with the slight bump in crime since the recession, levels are still lower than they were 10-15 years ago, and 2) that the SIS is responding to an overall opioid crisis, the roots of which go far deeper than the immediate community experience.

If you read the report, CPS made that distinction, and noted that overall crime was still lower than it was 10-15 years ago with the exception of trespassing and vehicle break-ins. They are responding to this with more foot patrols and officer presence through the downtown.

Cities aren't little amber fossils that crystallize and preserve your community in perpetuity forever. They change, peak and fall, react and respond to all of the immense forces that push and pull a society along.

Better to be proactive, then withdraw.
All fair points and I personally am exhausted with the topic at hand to really keep pouring more into the discussion, but...

1. 250M used as the goal post in the first place isn't typical. Most times, crime stats are done based on community, not specific locations. There was probably a specific demand for analysis to be done to explain the direct effects related to the SIS which is why the 250M radius was selected, but IMO, that context should be considered as unique and not extrapolated against the community.

2. The stats very likely aren't wrong. But there's also a significant feeling and difference to those in the area as well. As such, I suggested the possibility of a blind spot the way the stats are used/area covered (ie: context) that might be why there's such disconnect from those in the community vs the stats themselves.

3. Have you ever called something illegal in? It's not like I'm not sitting on a balcony, phone in hand waiting to call in illegal activity. Like any average person, I'm on the internet, watching Netflix etc. So saying those in the community should call things isn't exactly a useful suggestion. It's not like we have nothing better to do. Has CPS been called about illegal activity while I was in the area? Yes. (I watched someone break into a vehicle and drive off in it). If I see it, I'll call. But I'm not going to wait around looking for events to call in. It takes time to call it in, then 10-20 minutes for CPS to show up and however long additionally to give a statement of the events. 30 minutes for a "quick" one. It's not like you fire off a quick email for a minute and go on with your evening. It takes a pretty good chunk of time to call something in.

4. Why are you even talking about cities being in perpetuity forever when the discussion is more about the community? While I agree, communities don't stay similar in perpetuity forever, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a gradual quality of life shift over a few years. This shift happened over months and is continuing to happen.


I think there are two sides to everything and both sides have very valid things to say, but with so few people listening on either side, the whole thing just goes around and around in circles with no progression. I'm going forward with what you said. I'm going to withdraw.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:54 PM   #472
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Wexford place is where my POV comes from. It is literally one of the closest buildings to the Chumir. I moved from there a little while ago, but I'm still in the area relatively frequently since my cousin's unit is still there and I also do recreational activities at Beltline Aquatic. I am torn on the issue and I agree with your comment that many feel you have to be for it or against the SIS. I'd really love to see better harmony between the community and the SIS, but I don't have the energy or desire anymore to be part of the solution. The whole ordeal has been exhausting and it's tiresome feeling like a nuisance.
I lived in the Divan just around the corner for about 5 years and I can always say that the neighbourhood was a little bit sketchy. Long before the SIS, I had homeless people trying to break into my building's lobby, shoot up or have sex in the parkade. Yeah, it sucks but it is the Beltline.

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I've mentioned a few times that police presence would have helped a lot. To be fair, an increase in police presence is probably not going to cut down the crime a huge, but at least nearby residents don't have to feel abandoned etc. It's probably like those sound barriers by major roads. They apparently only cut down noise by 10-30%, but the complaints by residents that have them installed decreases by more than half.

That being said, I don't know if such a solution would even be as effective anyways. Many who were upset are long gone and those that are still around are so tired and fed up with everything they either just grin and bear it, or are planning exit strategies as well.
It is important to continue providing feedback to CPS so they can come up with reasonable solutions based on accurate feedback.


Quote:
1. 250M used as the goal post in the first place isn't typical. Most times, crime stats are done based on community, not specific locations. There was probably a specific demand for analysis to be done to explain the direct effects related to the SIS which is why the 250M radius was selected, but IMO, that context should be considered as unique and not extrapolated against the community.
250m was used because as the report pointed out, if you just folded the SIS into the larger Beltline/Connaught community, the crime increases would just fold into a core-wide increase in trespassing, property crime, and vehicle break-ins. They did it to be more accurate.

Quote:
2. The stats very likely aren't wrong. But there's also a significant feeling and difference to those in the area as well. As such, I suggested the possibility of a blind spot the way the stats are used/area covered (ie: context) that might be why there's such disconnect from those in the community vs the stats themselves.
What is the difference in feel? As I said, I lived in the immediate area for a long time and it was always understood to be a little bit sketchy.

Quote:
3. Have you ever called something illegal in? It's not like I'm not sitting on a balcony, phone in hand waiting to call in illegal activity. Like any average person, I'm on the internet, watching Netflix etc. So saying those in the community should call things isn't exactly a useful suggestion. It's not like we have nothing better to do. Has CPS been called about illegal activity while I was in the area? Yes. (I watched someone break into a vehicle and drive off in it). If I see it, I'll call. But I'm not going to wait around looking for events to call in. It takes time to call it in, then 10-20 minutes for CPS to show up and however long additionally to give a statement of the events. 30 minutes for a "quick" one. It's not like you fire off a quick email for a minute and go on with your evening. It takes a pretty good chunk of time to call something in.
Maybe I'm a narc, but I definitely called stuff in on a somewhat frequent basis.

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4. Why are you even talking about cities being in perpetuity forever when the discussion is more about the community? While I agree, communities don't stay similar in perpetuity forever, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a gradual quality of life shift over a few years. This shift happened over months and is continuing to happen.
So embrace it. You can't reverse it. Everyone knows that this is part of a much larger socio-cultural issue. It isn't comfortable for people. When I lived close to the DTES, I certainly didn't find any of it pleasant, and it was in fact, one of the reasons I moved farther away. That said, I understood that places like Insite were trying to solve an extremely complex and difficult solution.
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Old 08-28-2019, 03:23 PM   #473
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When I lived close to the DTES, I certainly didn't find any of it pleasant, and it was in fact, one of the reasons I moved farther away.
Such a NIMBY reaction.
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