[Trade] Habs trade Monahan to the Jets for a 2024 1st and cond 2027 3rd

[Goriders]

Good for Monahan. I personally thought he was done when he went to montreal.

Too bad all of our star players from that era had to leave here to chase the cup.

[dino7c]

In hindsight Gaudreau at 10.5x8 would have been a bad deal anyway

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

In hindsight Gaudreau at 10.5x8 would have been a bad deal anyway

That's the thing. It was a no-win situation, because I doubt Gaudreau would have signed any contract that he could actually live up to.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's the thing. It was a no-win situation, because I doubt Gaudreau would have signed any contract that he could actually live up to.

I really feel like Gaudreau left his heart in Calgary. I think he would’ve continued his great play if he had stayed with the Flames. He chose Columbus because he thought that was best for his family.

I’ve watched him a few times as a Blue Jacket and he doesn’t look anything like the Gaudreau we saw in Flames silks. That spark is completely gone and I think he’s depressed at the decision he made.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by 868904

I really feel like Gaudreau left his heart in Calgary. I think he would’ve continued his great play if he had stayed with the Flames. He chose Columbus because he thought that was best for his family.

I’ve watched him a few times as a Blue Jacket and he doesn’t look anything like the Gaudreau we saw in Flames silks. That spark is completely gone and I think he’s depressed at the decision he made.

Or he wanted to collect his money and mail it in for a team without any pressure...some of us suspected it at the time

[bluejays]

Yeah, I'm not buying the heart in Calgary angle from Gaudreau. You have to watch who to give contracts to. There are guys who feel like they won the lottery and want to coast, and guys who will kill to live up to their contract. How do you judge that? I'm not sure, but Gaudreau seemed to be the type to mail it in. I'd actually go further and guess that most guys would mail it in and very few are worthy of that long term deal unless they have crazy good work ethic. Leading up to that contract there were seasons where Gaudreau was moaping.

[activeStick]

Johnny had the swagger in Calgary. I don't think his play if he stayed would be like it is now. He'd be the same dynamic player he was while with the Flames. Lindholm would be better as well. Oh well time to move on and Zary, Naz, Huberdeau, Coleman, Sharangovich are the guys now.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Yeah, I'm not buying the heart in Calgary angle from Gaudreau. You have to watch who to give contracts to. There are guys who feel like they won the lottery and want to coast, and guys who will kill to live up to their contract. How do you judge that? I'm not sure, but Gaudreau seemed to be the type to mail it in. I'd actually go further and guess that most guys would mail it in and very few are worthy of that long term deal unless they have crazy good work ethic. Leading up to that contract there were seasons where Gaudreau was moaping.

He was his best in his last season here, which he apparently absolutely hated playing like. That wasn’t the player we were going to get.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Which should have required the Canucks to pay appropriately to do so, which they didn’t. The Flames (if they were a well run hockey team) would have no problems retaining half of Lindholm to make it work, not taking on a cap dump for essentially free instead.

Where is the value Calgary got for helping Vancouver out of the Kuzmenko contract? It’s just not there. 1st+Bruzustewicz+depth pick/prospect was the absolute bare minimum for what Lindholm should have returned on his own.

So now we get the honor of having to deal with Kuzmenko and didn’t get paid a penny to deal with it. Better players have been dumped for more than it took to add Kuzmenko to this trade.

But Calgary is not a well run team, they need to “keep a competitive team on the ice”. And so management sees Kuzmenko as being a drop in replacement for Lindholm more or less, just like they (to some success, so far) saw Sharangovich as a drop in replacement for Toffoli. The mandate is not to get any worse on the ice while moving these players that don’t want to be here long term. The futures returns in these trades are secondary to management’s apparent need to have a fresh body take the place of the old one.

It’s not the worst strategy overall but it is one that keeps the team away from the ultimate goal. This team still needs two franchise players, every good team has 2. You get them at the draft, and you most often get them in the top 5. This team is never going to aim to pick top 5, as evidenced by these trades that are placing value on the return’s ability to contribute on the ice vs it’s ability to contribute in the future.

To use an analogy, the Flames are investing everything in a GIC. “It’s steady, safe, free money” they say, as they lose year over year to inflation. The team needs to gamble a little bit if they ever want to become a premier team.

Doesn't all the above fall apart if they trade Kuzemenko for a 2nd round pick at next year's deadline?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dino7c

In hindsight Gaudreau at 10.5x8 would have been a bad deal anyway

If the Flames signed that deal, and by all accounts Tkachuk was still leaving the Flames would have used Tkachuk to restock the cupboards instead of acquiring Huberdeau. In isolation the Johnny deal would have been bad but ultimately better for the org. At least Johnny would have had his legacy here unlike Huberdeau

[Lanny_McDonald]

It's really too bad that this trade is blowing up in the faces of the Flames and the talking heads are calling the Flames idiots for giving Monahan away WITH a 1st round pick, and then Montreal turning into a 1st and another pick. I wish they would look at the clown that made the deal instead of the team he represented. They should be roasting the guy in Toronto for this error, not the Flames. Montreal did great here because the guy in Toronto had no plan and was incompetent in the his the execution of his duties. Hopefully the media will finally get the clue when he does to Toronto what he did to Calgary and drive that franchise into the turf.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Kuzmenko has 1 season left on his contract at $5.5.
People are acting like he's Lucic or Neal here.

That's not a negative value asset.
If the Canucks traded him directly to another team, they would have gotten a return.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's really too bad that this trade is blowing up in the faces of the Flames and the talking heads are calling the Flames idiots for giving Monahan away WITH a 1st round pick, and then Montreal turning into a 1st and another pick. I wish they would look at the clown that made the deal instead of the team he represented. They should be roasting the guy in Toronto for this error, not the Flames. Montreal did great here because the guy in Toronto had no plan and was incompetent in the his the execution of his duties. Hopefully the media will finally get the clue when he does to Toronto what he did to Calgary and drive that franchise into the turf.

How beautiful would it be if the Toronto media started using some of his crap deals from Calgary as context when asking him questions?

"After watching MTL get another 1st plus a 3rd for a guy you paid them a 1st to take when you were in Calgary, are you worried that this deal you just made might turn out the same way?"

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

So just let him expire? That's better?

It may very well have been around what he got in Columbus that summer. Fans would've got over it and continued to enjoy the best Flames line in decades.

I don't think Tre got serious enough on talks then because he assumed Gaudreau loved calgary and would be game to sign later.

Ha! That’s hilarious.

Fans would have gotten over it? Not a chance. The same amount of whining and sniveling we’re subjected to daily here would still be in full force.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Which should have required the Canucks to pay appropriately to do so, which they didn’t. The Flames (if they were a well run hockey team) would have no problems retaining half of Lindholm to make it work, not taking on a cap dump for essentially free instead.

Where is the value Calgary got for helping Vancouver out of the Kuzmenko contract? It’s just not there. 1st+Bruzustewicz+depth pick/prospect was the absolute bare minimum for what Lindholm should have returned on his own.

So now we get the honor of having to deal with Kuzmenko and didn’t get paid a penny to deal with it. Better players have been dumped for more than it took to add Kuzmenko to this trade.

But Calgary is not a well run team, they need to “keep a competitive team on the ice”. And so management sees Kuzmenko as being a drop in replacement for Lindholm more or less, just like they (to some success, so far) saw Sharangovich as a drop in replacement for Toffoli. The mandate is not to get any worse on the ice while moving these players that don’t want to be here long term. The futures returns in these trades are secondary to management’s apparent need to have a fresh body take the place of the old one.

It’s not the worst strategy overall but it is one that keeps the team away from the ultimate goal. This team still needs two franchise players, every good team has 2. You get them at the draft, and you most often get them in the top 5. This team is never going to aim to pick top 5, as evidenced by these trades that are placing value on the return’s ability to contribute on the ice vs it’s ability to contribute in the future.

To use an analogy, the Flames are investing everything in a GIC. “It’s steady, safe, free money” they say, as they lose year over year to inflation. The team needs to gamble a little bit if they ever want to become a premier team.

Your bias is completely clouding your judgement here. Let's break it down:

Lindholm's salary is $4.85M so maximum retention is $2.425M, for 3/8 of a season. If $5M for a full season is roughly worth a 1st, then $2.5M for less than half a season is worth what? Maybe a 4th. A 3rd a the most.

So if the Flames retained, they should have been able to up the deal by maybe another 3rd round pick.

Instead, they take Kuzmenko. This is interesting because, for VAN, he's a cap dump. And clearly, that is how you are viewing him. However, for the Flames, he is not a cap dump, he is an asset. He will play on the PP, and he will play in their top 6 (or top 9, depending on how you look at their lines)

More importantly, he will also be flipped for more assets. There is a chance they trade him at this deadline, if there is a team that desires him, but more likely, he plays a year, and then gets traded at next year's deadline. Either way, if the Flames get at least a 3rd for him (more likely next year than this, IMO), then they are better off than they would be, had they retained, and not taken him.

[Enoch Root]

If they don't take Kuzmenko (very difficult because Van wouldn't have been able to do it without some salary going back, but for the sake of argument), the deal probably looks something like this:

Lindholm (50% retained) --> 1st, Brzustewicz, Jurmo 4th + value of cap retention

cap retention = maybe a 3rd, so

1st, Brzustewicz, Jurmo 4th + 3rd

combine the conditional 4th and the 3rd (2 3rds = 2nd usually, at the draft), and you get:

Lindholm (50% retained) --> 1st + 2nd + Brzustewicz + Jurmo

Would that make people happier than the current deal? Because they are essentially the same

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by traptor

It sounds like the flames viewed kuzmnko as a big positive asset.

It's possible that the Jets ponied up a big offer like a 1st+lambert+

But the flames preferred the canucks offer

I don't think there is any question that the Flames view him as an asset.

Originally Posted by The Cobra

What they say publically and what they think are two different things.

Vancouver was trying to move him with sweetners. Everyone knew that. Calgary got extra stuff for taking him.

Sure. But that doesn't mean they are lying here. VAN viewed him as a cap dump, no question. They needed to move salary, and Lindholm is taking a spot in the top 6, so moving out a body was required anyway. But just because VAN saw it as a cap dump, does not mean the Flames did. Kuzmenko is far more valuable to the Flames, than he is to VAN. That is how win/win trades get created.

Sorry for discussing the other trade, back to Monahan discussion...

[Paulie Walnuts]

Vancouver paid a heavy price for a rental. They are also riding a super hot PDO which has blinded them into thinking they are contending for a cup.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Vancouver paid a heavy price for a rental. They are also riding a super hot PDO which has blinded them into thinking they are contending for a cup.

Yeah their13.5% shooting percentage in all situations is crazy high. The definition of unsustainable.

They have a great goaltender so that part of the PDO push can be explained, but they're 2% clear of last year's highest shooting team. On a five game homestand that's like 3 additional goals.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Doesn't all the above fall apart if they trade Kuzemenko for a 2nd round pick at next year's deadline?

I agree. This isn't a "conservative" move. They are rolling the dice that Huberdeau (presumably) can feed Kuzmenko into a year of good goal production raising his value for next year's TDL.

I doubt they view Kuzmenko as a long term piece here.