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Old 08-26-2021, 02:55 AM   #1
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No more carrots, only sticks. In November, Delta Airlines will begin charging unvaccinated staff $200 per month to stay on the company's health plan...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1430534784074256388


Also, it's funny that they called it the B.1.617.2 variant, rather than the Delta variant.
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Old 08-26-2021, 07:02 AM   #2
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Good on Delta (!) Airlines.

And $40,000 per person? Good, let’s start putting some numbers out there about the real cost of Covid. How many of these hospitalizations could have been avoided? Kenney and Hinshaw like numbers right?
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Old 08-26-2021, 07:43 AM   #3
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It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.
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Old 08-26-2021, 08:15 AM   #4
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It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.
Excellent point.
Pretty sure the public good is less their agenda than the bottom line, but the effect is growing rapidly regardless, across a broad business base for health reasons. I'm an independent contractor. Several entities to whom I provide services have, in the last 2 days, requested proof of vaccination. This is so they can ensure their clients (with whom i/we have direct contact) the highest level of their personal protection/safety possible. You won't see news stories on this but it is happening everywhere in America right now.
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Old 08-26-2021, 09:27 AM   #5
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...port-1.6153677

A similar 200% increase in vaccination appointment bookings here in AB, mainly in the sub 40 age group would go a long way.

At some point is our province going to stop being so painfully obtuse and get with the program? Of course not. That would require an ounce of leadership and care for doing the right thing. Instead we might eventually get a self serve, printable paper card that is maybe going to be useable. Bravo Kenney.

We are stuck with way too many people that only care about themselves in this province who won't step up and get vaccinated unless there are some real pressures to do so and I'm tired of being dragged back into an unnecessary mess because of their selfish choices.
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Old 08-26-2021, 09:51 AM   #6
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Unfortunately it's not the under 40 crowd in BC that needs to get vaccinated to protect the hospital system. It's the unvaccinated 50+ year olds that are by far the biggest liability. This chart is based on Israel's recent numbers, but it clearly shows how stratified the risk of severe disease is among the age groups:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c...e9d%7Emv2.webp

Based on those numbers, the 200K 50-59 year olds and 115K 60-69 year olds who aren't vaccinated in BC would be expected to take up about 30x the hospital beds as the 362K unvaccinated 20-29 year olds. Yeah, vaccinating more young people will reduce spread somewhat, but ultimately the people at risk of being hospitalized are the ones that need to be vaccinated the most.
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Old 08-26-2021, 10:08 AM   #7
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Unfortunately it's not the under 40 crowd in BC that needs to get vaccinated to protect the hospital system. It's the unvaccinated 50+ year olds that are by far the biggest liability. This chart is based on Israel's recent numbers, but it clearly shows how stratified the risk of severe disease is among the age groups:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c...e9d%7Emv2.webp

Based on those numbers, the 200K 50-59 year olds and 115K 60-69 year olds who aren't vaccinated in BC would be expected to take up about 30x the hospital beds as the 362K unvaccinated 20-29 year olds. Yeah, vaccinating more young people will reduce spread somewhat, but ultimately the people at risk of being hospitalized are the ones that need to be vaccinated the most.
BC has better full vaccination by almost every metric than Alberta and many other provinces, and superior coverage among those under 40. The 60+ demographic is also sitting well over 80% fully vaxxed in the province (increasing with age). That age is more likely to suffer severe outcomes, but you're comparing already great coverage to shameful coverage in some of the younger demographics.

The younger people that are unvaxxed and out living life the most, are the ones causing these 4th wave surges, that is not even up for debate. When you have uptake numbers in the 25-35 crowd so shamefully low, it's obvious you need to penalize people in order to further raise uptake, and a vaccine card is the way to do it.

The fact appointments are surging after this announcement is pretty clear proof that it works and now is the time to do it before winter hits.
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Old 08-26-2021, 10:41 AM   #8
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BC has better full vaccination by almost every metric than Alberta and many other provinces, and superior coverage among those under 40. The 60+ demographic is also sitting well over 80% fully vaxxed in the province (increasing with age). That age is more likely to suffer severe outcomes, but you're comparing already great coverage to shameful coverage in some of the younger demographics.

The younger people that are unvaxxed and out living life the most, are the ones causing these 4th wave surges, that is not even up for debate. When you have uptake numbers in the 25-35 crowd so shamefully low, it's obvious you need to penalize people in order to further raise uptake, and a vaccine card is the way to do it.

The fact appointments are surging after this announcement is pretty clear proof that it works and now is the time to do it before winter hits.
I'm not saying that more vaccinations aren't a good thing, but with the way COVID spreads, bumping the vaccination rate for people in their 20s or 30s will only really have a fairly minimal effect on hospitalizations when there are still hundreds of thousands of people in age ranges that have 10-30% hospitalization rates that are sitting unvaccinated.

And in Alberta, the adult age cohorts that have seen the biggest increase in cases since the start of this month have been the older groups:

20-29: 2.74x
30-59: 3.47x
60-79: 5.73x
80+: 9.5x

When you need about 30-50 cases among 20-29 year olds to match the hospitalization risk of 1 case among 60-79 year olds, it's pretty clear where the risk lies. Even just bumping the vaccination rate among 50+ year olds to UK levels would have vastly more impact on hospitals than vaccinating every single person under 40. If vaccine passports aren't going to do that, then there needs to be even more coercive measures for the at-risk population, because that unvaccinated 50+ group is essentially what stands between living relatively normally with a functional healthcare system and not having that.
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Old 08-26-2021, 10:47 AM   #9
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^ do we have similar age stats available for hospitalizations?
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Old 08-26-2021, 11:20 AM   #10
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^ do we have similar age stats available for hospitalizations?
I don't think Alberta breaks down hospitalization by age over time, so not really. But the hospitalization rate by age has remained pretty steady, so you can sort of infer that from the case numbers.

That's not to say that 20-39 year olds aren't still making up the bulk of the cases (their % of cases is nearly double their share of the population), but the hospital burden is so disparate that that's not really the significant risk at this point.

The UK for instance has a lower uptake among U40 for vaccination than Alberta (largely due to rollout, I expect it'll end up higher) and they haven't even really started vaccinating anyone under 18, but because they have such high vaccination numbers in their at-risk population, they're doing fine even though they're seeing a lot of spread. They got up to the equivalent of 3K cases per day for Alberta's population (about 4x Alberta's current level), yet because they have ~95% of 50+ year olds fully vaccinated, their hospitalization numbers peaked at the equivalent of 400 patients for Alberta's population, which is a level that Alberta is probably already set to hit once you allow for a week's lag from the current case levels.
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Old 08-26-2021, 05:09 PM   #11
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It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.
You see it in the NFL as well which is the league that puts $$$ over athletes all the time coming out with the strongest policies.
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Old 08-26-2021, 05:33 PM   #12
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From Shandro:

I would like to inform Albertans that a new section has been added to the @youralberta website with information on accessing proof of vaccination records.

alberta.ca/proof-of-vacci… 1/8

Albertans have been asking more questions about proof of vaccination in recent days so we have posted answers to some of the most common questions online.

To be clear, the Alberta government has not and will not mandate a so-called ‘vaccine passport’ for domestic use. 2/8

Other jurisdictions (provinces/countries) may have different requirements which the Alberta govt does not control.

Albertans already receive proof of vaccination when they get their shot, be it from AHS, pharmacies, or a doctor. 3/8

But some Albertans, for whatever reason, are still hoping to receive a more formal document (ex. for international travel).


Alberta MyHealth Records was launched in March 2019, providing Albertans with secure digital access to their personal health records. 4/8

800,000 Albertans already have MyHealth accounts.

Thousands have signed up in recent days, 2,000 yesterday alone. You too can sign up at myhealth.alberta.ca 5/8

While not specific to COVID-19 or vaccines, MyHealth has long included vaccination records – not just for COVID19 – as part of Albertans’ health records.

Albertans can then print a hard copy of the record or display the vaccination record through the mobile app. 6/8

Finally, they may take a screenshot to display upon request.

We are working on making MyHealth Records more accessible for Albertans. Soon, Albertans will be able to print a conveniently sized paper card. 7/8

If you have not already received both doses of a #COVID19AB vaccine, you can book an appointment at alberta.ca/vaccine.

Please consider doing so.

95% of ICU patients since June were either unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated. 8/8

What an effing dick
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Old 08-26-2021, 06:02 PM   #13
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I went to the "information" page and at the bottom it has a "Was this page helpful?" link. I clicked "No".

When it asked what went wrong, I said "Jason Kenney became our Premier and appointed Tyler Shandro as the Minister of Health." If nothing else, I hope it will give some poor soul who works for the government a chuckle.
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Old 08-26-2021, 06:03 PM   #14
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To miss the obvious correlation between so many people signing up, and the need for proof of vaccination is mind boggling. He can't be that thick, can he?
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Old 08-26-2021, 07:04 PM   #15
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To miss the obvious correlation between so many people signing up, and the need for proof of vaccination is mind boggling. He can't be that thick, can he?
I'm pretty certain he can be.
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Old 08-27-2021, 09:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I'm not saying that more vaccinations aren't a good thing, but with the way COVID spreads, bumping the vaccination rate for people in their 20s or 30s will only really have a fairly minimal effect on hospitalizations when there are still hundreds of thousands of people in age ranges that have 10-30% hospitalization rates that are sitting unvaccinated.

And in Alberta, the adult age cohorts that have seen the biggest increase in cases since the start of this month have been the older groups:

20-29: 2.74x
30-59: 3.47x
60-79: 5.73x
80+: 9.5x

When you need about 30-50 cases among 20-29 year olds to match the hospitalization risk of 1 case among 60-79 year olds, it's pretty clear where the risk lies. Even just bumping the vaccination rate among 50+ year olds to UK levels would have vastly more impact on hospitals than vaccinating every single person under 40. If vaccine passports aren't going to do that, then there needs to be even more coercive measures for the at-risk population, because that unvaccinated 50+ group is essentially what stands between living relatively normally with a functional healthcare system and not having that.
There just aren't 100s of thousands of unvaccinated people in the 60+ demographic in AB. In most cases the population is 90% fully immunized and you're simply not going to get that number to 100% for a variety of reasons. Even in the 50-60 range, there are simply not 100s of thousands unvaccinated either, with AB sitting at just over 80% uptake with 2nd dose numbers rising every day.

The 19-35 demo in the province is the clear issue that is leading to the cases spreading into the younger and older populations as they do have the 100s of thousands of unvaccinated remaining, and are the ones spreading the virus by being the most being socially active.

The Increase rates you list are pretty meaningless as well since the caseload in the younger demographics wouldn't have increased as much having higher caseloads to begin with months prior (and for most of the spring).

There is certainly a point to be made that 19-35 is far less likely to suffer severe illness, however, limiting spread and the need to shut down business again should be the goal. To do this right, you don't target a few thousand remaining boomers who are for the most part living in a smaller bubble to begin with. You put out a vaccine passport to make life incredibly difficult on the selfish citizens still not getting the jab that think the worst outcome of Covid is that they feel bad for a day or two. More often than not they still don't consider passing this along to someone who may die or become seriously ill. Vaccinated or not.

The evidence is clear across the provinces and countries willing to put out a passport. Uptake immediately increases significantly, and will in turn keep many more people safe and the provinces open.
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Old 08-27-2021, 11:12 AM   #17
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There just aren't 100s of thousands of unvaccinated people in the 60+ demographic in AB. In most cases the population is 90% fully immunized and you're simply not going to get that number to 100% for a variety of reasons. Even in the 50-60 range, there are simply not 100s of thousands unvaccinated either, with AB sitting at just over 80% uptake with 2nd dose numbers rising every day.
In Alberta there are 115K 60+ year olds that aren't fully vaccinated and another 140K 50-59 year olds. That represents a pretty significant hospitalization risk if cases get out of control or there's continuous widespread infections in the coming months.

Quote:
The 19-35 demo in the province is the clear issue that is leading to the cases spreading into the younger and older populations as they do have the 100s of thousands of unvaccinated remaining, and are the ones spreading the virus by being the most being socially active.

The Increase rates you list are pretty meaningless as well since the caseload in the younger demographics wouldn't have increased as much having higher caseloads to begin with months prior (and for most of the spring).

There is certainly a point to be made that 19-35 is far less likely to suffer severe illness, however, limiting spread and the need to shut down business again should be the goal. To do this right, you don't target a few thousand remaining boomers who are for the most part living in a smaller bubble to begin with. You put out a vaccine passport to make life incredibly difficult on the selfish citizens still not getting the jab that think the worst outcome of Covid is that they feel bad for a day or two. More often than not they still don't consider passing this along to someone who may die or become seriously ill. Vaccinated or not.

The evidence is clear across the provinces and countries willing to put out a passport. Uptake immediately increases significantly, and will in turn keep many more people safe and the provinces open.
I guess I'm just of the mind that because basically nowhere has managed to maintain low cases levels while returning to normal (regardless of vaccination rate), that a huge part of the population is going to be exposed this fall/winter. So that means the most important thing is getting the people most likely to end up in hospital vaccinated. If a vaccine passport doesn't do that for that age cohort, then we need to figure something else out or we run the risk of having the shut everything down again if it keeps spreading widely.
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Old 08-27-2021, 11:37 AM   #18
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In Alberta there are 115K 60+ year olds that aren't fully vaccinated and another 140K 50-59 year olds. That represents a pretty significant hospitalization risk if cases get out of control or there's continuous widespread infections in the coming months.

I guess I'm just of the mind that because basically nowhere has managed to maintain low cases levels while returning to normal (regardless of vaccination rate), that a huge part of the population is going to be exposed this fall/winter. So that means the most important thing is getting the people most likely to end up in hospital vaccinated. If a vaccine passport doesn't do that for that age cohort, then we need to figure something else out or we run the risk of having the shut everything down again if it keeps spreading widely.
I am interested in what your views are on getting the last remaining people vaccinated?

We need to move from education -> advocating -> some sort of passport -> coercion. (I don't think we can ever cross the rubicon of forcing vaccinations physically).

So what steps would you take to protect the hospitals should vaccination rates not climb to a level where the hospitals are inherently protected?
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Old 08-27-2021, 12:06 PM   #19
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I am interested in what your views are on getting the last remaining people vaccinated?

We need to move from education -> advocating -> some sort of passport -> coercion. (I don't think we can ever cross the rubicon of forcing vaccinations physically).

So what steps would you take to protect the hospitals should vaccination rates not climb to a level where the hospitals are inherently protected?
Giving Vaccine-loaded Dart guns to the vaccinated. As soon as they find someone that is unvaccinate they shoot them. It would devolve into a giant hunt ! Would be fun.
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Old 08-27-2021, 12:25 PM   #20
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I am interested in what your views are on getting the last remaining people vaccinated?

We need to move from education -> advocating -> some sort of passport -> coercion. (I don't think we can ever cross the rubicon of forcing vaccinations physically).

So what steps would you take to protect the hospitals should vaccination rates not climb to a level where the hospitals are inherently protected?
I don't think there is a good answer. To start, I'd probably just make it a bigger pain in the ass to be unvaccinated. So require regular testing (at the person's own expense) for basically all job sites and mandate vaccination or extremely strict (and likely expensive) testing protocols for pretty much every public service employee. And if this turns into a continual problem (say protection against severe disease wanes after a few years), then maybe treat it more like smoking by introducing a quasi surcharge for unvaccinated people (something like a $1K tax rebate for being vaccinated while simultaneously increasing the lowest bracket's tax rate to cover the difference).

And also much stricter enforcement/heavier penalties for breaking health regulations.There are already a bunch of businesses in BC who are publicly saying they won't take part in vaccine passports. Is anything going to happen to them? Based on what we saw with restaurants in Vancouver that continued in-person dining when it was shut down, probably not. But if this was treated with the same seriousness as say, regularly serving minors alcohol, it'd probably be a lot different. And the same with individuals. There was that moron in Vancouver who was repeatedly shut down for running a nightclub/strip club out of his penthouse during the strictest shutdowns in January. The only consequences he faced were some fines, 1 day in jail, and 18 months probation. If the federal government can fine people $5.7K for accidentally having the wrong type of COVID test before re-entering the country, surely provinces can enact harsh penalties for people who blatantly and willfully break health regulations.
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