Let's talk about Cryptocurrencies

[ripTDR]

Originally Posted by dino7c

If anyone still cares BTC is up 10% today

Over 50k Canadian

LOL imagine trying to buy a TV with this...

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ripTDR

LOL imagine trying to buy a TV with this...

Yeh, they really should be sued for calling it a coin or a currency or any inference that its a transactional tool, its just an investment, it should be called bitchance

[dino7c]

Its an asset, internet real estate

[Winsor_Pilates]

Everything is back up a bit today.
The one odd thing with cryptos is they mostly all go up or down together.
I hold 8 different coins and they all act exactly the same, dropping together or gaining together.

Evidence that they're all mostly useless still but will react when confidence of the technology goes up or down.
Individual coins are mostly meaningless still.

[topfiverecords]

It’s a tulip, an internet tulip

[bootsnixon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The irony is this is how we ended up with central banks, 2 or 300 years ago local banks issued their own currency, there were all kinds of local currencies but they would fail regularly and inevitably central Government stepped in to create stability and a trustworthy currency

This is a good point. We are truly blessed to live in a country where outside of a couple of blips we can rely on our government and banking system to provide stability and trust in our currency and economy for 150 years. Here in Canada, a decentralized and finite currency is not particularly needed and possibly even detrimental to a central banks ability to maintain a healthy economy.

Now consider countries that are not as lucky as us. Countries that:
- routinely face yearly inflation in excess of 10%
- do not have a stable government and struggle to control their economy
- do not have their own currency
- do not have a stable trustworthy banking system
- are undemocratic and their government may not have the citizens welfare at their forefront

I think it's possible an increasingly adopted, finite, decentralized currency could be a benefit to these people. When I consider the number of people that fall under these categories in the world, I can see why people are excited about Bitcoin. It is surely in the billions and may even be over half the earth's population.

It's not without it's faults, but Bitcoin is definitely tantalizing. I'm enjoying the discussion!

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

This is a good point. We are truly blessed to live in a country where outside of a couple of blips we can rely on our government and banking system to provide stability and trust in our currency and economy for 150 years. Here in Canada, a decentralized and finite currency is not particularly needed and possibly even detrimental to a central banks ability to maintain a healthy economy.

Now consider countries that are not as lucky as us. Countries that:
- routinely face yearly inflation in excess of 10%
- do not have a stable government and struggle to control their economy
- do not have their own currency
- do not have a stable trustworthy banking system
- are undemocratic and their government may not have the citizens welfare at their forefront

I think it's possible an increasingly adopted, finite, decentralized currency could be a benefit to these people. When I consider the number of people that fall under these categories in the world, I can see why people are excited about Bitcoin. It is surely in the billions and may even be over half the earth's population.

It's not without it's faults, but Bitcoin is definitely tantalizing. I'm enjoying the discussion!

these countries all just happily use the US dollar now, their economies function, not as well as ours but they operate, now I could see an argument for a centralised Government controlled crypto coin that the IMF or some other trustworthy body would operate but the answer to corrupt untrustworthy Governments isnt corrupt untrustworthy bit coins whose main function seem to be to provide avenues for 25 year olds to get scammed out of everything in a manner previously restricted to fake roofers ripping off geriatrics
'we were in the area making someone else rich with this bitcoin and we had some left over, I can sell it to you for half the price it would normally go for missus, but you have to decide quick before my boss gets back from vacation'

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

It’s a tulip, an internet tulip

When I was in college all the smartest people in the room told me the internet itself was a tulip...and then said I toda so during the .com crash

Didn't age well

[bootsnixon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

these countries all just happily use the US dollar now, their economies function, not as well as ours but they operate, now I could see an argument for a centralised Government controlled crypto coin that the IMF or some other trustworthy body would operate but the answer to corrupt untrustworthy Governments isnt corrupt untrustworthy bit coins whose main function seem to be to provide avenues for 25 year olds to get scammed out of everything in a manner previously restricted to fake roofers ripping off geriatrics
'we were in the area making someone else rich with this bitcoin and we had some left over, I can sell it to you for half the price it would normally go for missus, but you have to decide quick before my boss gets back from vacation'

I question if these countries are happily using the US dollar. The U.S. is able to employ quantitative easing to pump money into businesses and citizens to prop up the economy with the side effect of future inflation (hopefully offset by a growing economy).

A foreign country using USD has no such lever. They are unable to stimulate their economy with government stimulus and yet suffer devalued USD to both citizen and government coffers. They suffer all the disadvantage with none of the advantage.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

I question if these countries are happily using the US dollar. The U.S. is able to employ quantitative easing to pump money into businesses and citizens to prop up the economy with the side effect of future inflation (hopefully offset by a growing economy).

A foreign country using USD has no such lever. They are unable to stimulate their economy with government stimulus and yet suffer devalued USD to both citizen and government coffers. They suffer all the disadvantage with none of the advantage.

True but that equally applies to crypto with the added benefit that some ######bag gets to periodically steal everything you have from his laptop in Belarus, the theory of crypto is secure, the practise of crypto is the most insecure crime ridden fraudulent sea of scams and grifters since they started selling swampland in Florida

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ripTDR

LOL imagine trying to buy a TV with this...

What am I missing here?

It's an investment.

You can't buy a TV with stocks either, but you can sell the stocks for money and then buy a TV.

Same with Crypto no?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

What am I missing here?

It's an investment.

You can't buy a TV with stocks either, but you can sell the stocks for money and then buy a TV.

Same with Crypto no?

How is it an investment though? what are you investing in other than the hope that other people will drive the price up for no definable reason other than hope, I invest in BMO I am betting on them being a good bank and making a crap load of dosh, they pay me a dividend as well as the price going up due to their profit making attracting investors, the argument for crypto is its a currency but it is impossible to use as a currency due to its massive price fluctuations.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

How is it an investment though? what are you investing in other than the hope that other people will drive the price up for no definable reason other than hope, I invest in BMO I am betting on them being a good bank and making a crap load of dosh, they pay me a dividend as well as the price going up due to their profit making attracting investors, the argument for crypto is its a currency but it is impossible to use as a currency due to its massive price fluctuations.

I really have no idea, I know next to nothing about cryptocurrencies, but I do know they've made a lot of people rich, and I'm talking rich with real money.

[Jason14h]

Can you walk into a store and purchase a TV in Canada with a handful of Euro? What about a handful of Rupees?

No - Currently you convert it to the currency of the country you are in. Now most is done electronically - You pay for the TV using your CC or debit card and your bank converts if issuing bank/card is in another currency

Currently there are crypto wallets with Mastercard or Visa issued debit cards so you can buy anything in real time using your crypto balance

You also can instantly convert to any Fiat currency and withdrawal cash if you wanted to walk into the stores.

There are also companies that allow any online cashier to accept crypto, to any online store can accept crypto directly. (The issue is this is still more costly then accepting CC's so more of a PR play then a cost play at this time)

The economic infrastructure for brick and mortar stores don't have a mechanism to directly accept crypto (yet) so companies are riding the Mastercard and visa rails as most people have no issue carrying a visa or Mastercard debit card around when they want to buy something with their crypto

Buying something in Canada with Crypto is no harder then buying something with any currency outside of the CAD - It gets converted to the currency you are purchasing in at time of sale

The point of holding a crypto currency (outside of just FOMO/Speculative) is believing that it is a better stored of value then a traditional currency. Why do people hold USD over other currencies? They believe the USD is a good stable long term store of value.

Well what happens when people stop believing in countries to manage to money supply ? What happens when it becomes cheaper to process payment without including the central bank or government mandated banking rails?

There are lots of problems with Crypto - It is still expensive to use, accept and create. It is still somewhat tricky (and pricey) to understand the ecosystem and buy, spend, convert, etc.

But every year we are seeing new technology and innovation further reduce these problems. 5 years ago it was very very hard to even buy a Bitcoin in Canada. Now I can purchase crypto in seconds using publically traded companies and spend anywhere Visa or Mastercard is accepted.

Its fine to think Bitcoin itself is garbage and will eventually be overtaken/go away. But just dismissing 'Crypto' is like dismissing the internet as a whole because pets.com didnt have a business model and was built on speculation.

Crypto does not equal Bitcoin.

[ripTDR]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

What am I missing here?

It's an investment.

You can't buy a TV with stocks either, but you can sell the stocks for money and then buy a TV.

Same with Crypto no?

This is what I think the problem is. Without purchasing power for everyday use, Bitcoin is essentially useless. Now people are calling it "internet real estate"? It's sort of more of a pyramid scheme. If you bought in early you are depending on others to buy in for more later. If you buy in later, for much more, you are hoping someone will pay MUCH MUCH more and so on.



The only way you get seriously rich is if you cash out. Crypto was touted as de-centralized but the funny thing is, is that it's so useless that you have to cash out in regular fiat to get rich.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I really have no idea, I know next to nothing about cryptocurrencies, but I do know they've made a lot of people rich, and I'm talking rich with real money.

Ponzi schemes also provide a similar result.

[bootsnixon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

True but that equally applies to crypto with the added benefit that some ######bag gets to periodically steal everything you have from his laptop in Belarus, the theory of crypto is secure, the practise of crypto is the most insecure crime ridden fraudulent sea of scams and grifters since they started selling swampland in Florida

I disagree that it applies equally to bitcoin. Bitcoin, like real estate, is finite. The number of bitcoin will never inflate to debase it's value.

As one zooms out at a chart of bitcoin's value, it trends upwards as a finite asset should relative to an inflationary dollar.

Short term, price fluctuation is absolutely a problem with bitcoin. One should keep in mind that Bitcoin is a very young asset though. I don't know this but I would imagine that as money came into use, it's value fluctuated wildly relative to hard assets like wheat or chickens or swords or whatever. I think that one could also argue that bitcoin price fluctuation is starting to flatten. A one day price jump of 10% was noteworthy enough that Dino posted on this thread. Seven years ago, 10% jumps or drops were common place.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

This is a good point. We are truly blessed to live in a country where outside of a couple of blips we can rely on our government and banking system to provide stability and trust in our currency and economy for 150 years. Here in Canada, a decentralized and finite currency is not particularly needed and possibly even detrimental to a central banks ability to maintain a healthy economy.

Now consider countries that are not as lucky as us. Countries that:
- routinely face yearly inflation in excess of 10%
- do not have a stable government and struggle to control their economy
- do not have their own currency
- do not have a stable trustworthy banking system
- are undemocratic and their government may not have the citizens welfare at their forefront

I think it's possible an increasingly adopted, finite, decentralized currency could be a benefit to these people. When I consider the number of people that fall under these categories in the world, I can see why people are excited about Bitcoin. It is surely in the billions and may even be over half the earth's population.

It's not without it's faults, but Bitcoin is definitely tantalizing. I'm enjoying the discussion!

It's not tantalizing, it's dumb. There are so many things that make it unfeasible as a currency. A 10% spike in value in a day for example is a massive detriment for something tio be used as a currency, no matter which way it goes. Currency would need to be fairly stable in value to be usable. Such instability is bad for the currency overall, not good.

It costs between 2-60$ to make a bitcoin transaction and takes anything from minutes to several hours. Those two things by themselves make bitcoin just not a currency, and even less a possible currency for some unstable developing country.

Since blockchain technology doesn't really scale up, this situation would get much worse if any place would actually try using as an everyday currency, which of course they can't because it's too slow and expensive for any daily use.

There's only around 300.000 bitcoin transactions made daily currently, 13 years after it's launch. That's less than the number of daily monetary transactions in one small city. It's just not a currency, it's never been a currency, its technologically unfeasible to use blockchains as currency in large scales.

Just let that idea go. It's dead.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

I disagree that it applies equally to bitcoin. Bitcoin, like real estate, is finite. The number of bitcoin will never inflate to debase it's value.

As one zooms out at a chart of bitcoin's value, it trends upwards as a finite asset should relative to an inflationary dollar.

Short term, price fluctuation is absolutely a problem with bitcoin. One should keep in mind that Bitcoin is a very young asset though. I don't know this but I would imagine that as money came into use, it's value fluctuated wildly relative to hard assets like wheat or chickens or swords or whatever. I think that one could also argue that bitcoin price fluctuation is starting to flatten. A one day price jump of 10% was noteworthy enough that Dino posted on this thread. Seven years ago, 10% jumps or drops were common place.

Nothing that is infinatly divisible is actually finite in practice

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

I disagree that it applies equally to bitcoin. Bitcoin, like real estate, is finite. The number of bitcoin will never inflate to debase it's value.

As one zooms out at a chart of bitcoin's value, it trends upwards as a finite asset should relative to an inflationary dollar.

Short term, price fluctuation is absolutely a problem with bitcoin. One should keep in mind that Bitcoin is a very young asset though. I don't know this but I would imagine that as money came into use, it's value fluctuated wildly relative to hard assets like wheat or chickens or swords or whatever. I think that one could also argue that bitcoin price fluctuation is starting to flatten. A one day price jump of 10% was noteworthy enough that Dino posted on this thread. Seven years ago, 10% jumps or drops were common place.

Real estate and land has a use, and a very strong one at that. Bitcoin has very minor utility, matched by hundreds of other “coins” and the basic tech was already surpassed many years ago. 10% jumps and higher daily are still commonplace and there’s nothing noteworthy about it, except to someone holding it.

If any nation’s population adopts a digital currency en masse it won’t be Bitcoin. It will be a crypto with fast transactions, almost zero fees, widespread quick and cheap conversion to the local currency and here’s the important one. A crypto not majorly adopted by other nations.

In the event that this specific crypto does gain adoption as a currency, there won’t be any value in owning it. It will essentially become a stablecoin, not rise to inflated values.