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Old 08-14-2019, 06:34 AM   #41
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I forgot about the internet issue, actually. The first time I was there I had a VPN, so I didn't notice at all. The second time I didn't go that route and I did have a bunch of sites that were offlimits. You could use Google Maps, but not Gmail for example. (well you could access Gmail for things you already had but nothing new would come through or go out). That's the kind of thing that you don't notice as much as tourist though. I'm not wasting my trip on my phone, so it's an inconvenience, but you can deal with that.

But you've lived there much longer than the limited time I've spent there, so don't you think that there's some truth to the idea that the media here overstates how things are in Mainland China?
I've lived in mainland China for 8 years now. For the first 5 years I didn't use a VPN and got all the info I needed. Heck it's one of the reasons I used CalgaryPuck because you can get any info and it's not blocked.

I totally agree with you about western media bias. For sure it's not perfect in China, but guess what...No country is.

I read Reuters and CBC news it makes HK sound like a warzone. Seriously, protesters shutdown Pearson Airport two days in a row what's the reaction from Canadians going to be?

I returned from China one time during the G20 being in Toronto. Way less people and the police sure seemed extreme to me.

Before people judge what it's like in China o really suggest first coming here. It's really feels just as free as Canada. And this is coming from a guy with a Canadian maple.leaf tartoo on his back.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:43 AM   #42
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^ that was my impression as well, so I agree. But there is difference in how I'm treated as compared to a Chinese person I think? That might be better in certain circumstances and worse in others. And of course as a tourist you're not subject to all of the laws and such that someone who lives there is. (Of course you're subject to the laws, but I mean certain restrictions and such you just wouldn't have contact with).
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:28 AM   #43
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^ that was my impression as well, so I agree. But there is difference in how I'm treated as compared to a Chinese person I think? That might be better in certain circumstances and worse in others. And of course as a tourist you're not subject to all of the laws and such that someone who lives there is. (Of course you're subject to the laws, but I mean certain restrictions and such you just wouldn't have contact with).
Yah for sure as white people we are treated different.

Much like traveling through the southern parts of the USA. I've always had a great experience with the people there but if I was black maybe it would be different.

I know lots of local people.and they just dont care about politics here (much like Canada). So yeah, they don't get to choose their leaders but they are prospering and enjoying life. They travel all over the world. Even middle class people travel a lot more than Canadians IMO.

Before people judge what China's like they really need to come see it. I think they'll be surprised. It's just like anywhere else.
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:28 AM   #44
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I forgot about the internet issue, actually. The first time I was there I had a VPN, so I didn't notice at all. The second time I didn't go that route and I did have a bunch of sites that were offlimits. You could use Google Maps, but not Gmail for example. (well you could access Gmail for things you already had but nothing new would come through or go out). That's the kind of thing that you don't notice as much as tourist though. I'm not wasting my trip on my phone, so it's an inconvenience, but you can deal with that.

But you've lived there much longer than the limited time I've spent there, so don't you think that there's some truth to the idea that the media here overstates how things are in Mainland China?
I would say it is just much more complex than is presented in Western media. China certainly is not a place where people generally feel oppressed by the government. In fact, I would say it is the total opposite. People generally feel that the government is taking care of them and support the government. The government is generally highly trusted. Also, Chinese cities are generally very safe, standards of living have improved dramatically across the country and China has many dynamic, creative and inspiring things going on. It's an exciting and dynamic place that offers a good standard of living with some world class cities and many good cities.

On the other hand, many negative stories that are shared in Western media are also true, such as what is going on with the Uighurs. This type of thing simply doesn't affect the vast majority of Chinese, and the sharing of info about this type of situation is highly restricted and distorted in China, so Chinese people typically don't concern themselves with it and just trust the government. Unless someone has actually been personally affected by situations such as this, they're not giving thought to it, and if they have been affected they likely don't feel free to share much about it. Also, because in China people do not have any political voice, there is no expectation that people should express their political views and there is not the sense of oppression that someone in the West would feel under the same circumstances.

The state apparatus of control has certainly become much more powerful in recent years however and there has been a simultaneous strengthening of nationalist sentiment that is largely based on a Han ethnic identity, which I believe is dangerous. DrZaius mentions coming to places like CP and getting news, but this is obviously not representative of what the typical Chinese person does. Additionally, while a relatively small percentage of people do access international sources of info that may be critical of China or share contentious info or points of view, the controls over the sharing of that info on Chinese social media are now very powerful. AI is applied in screening messages that people share through apps like wechat, blocking images, text and even voice messages that contain contentious content from ever reaching the intended recipient. There are also laws to prevent the discussion of political situations, government policy or any sensitive info in wechat groups. The individual who first started the chat is legally responsible if anyone in the group shares content that violates the censorship policies. It effectively gets people to censor themselves and their own networks. When there are big events that fo take place in localized contexts, such as riots or demonstrations in a mainland cities, the government is also known to shut down internet access and mobile networks completely while order is restored, preventing news and video getting out to the public.

It is a complex situation. In many ways, Chinese are willing to trade away personal freedoms and political engagement of any kind in order to experience more commercial and economic freedom, so if you visit China as a tourist you will see many thriving and dynamic places with people who are generally happy and feel good about their government, but you will not see the persecuted minorities, hear the voices of those who oppose government actions or be exposed to the darker sides of society. This works well for the majority of Chinese, but there is also danger in it. The control is increasingly absolute, which should concern anyone who doesn't fully trust those who hold that absolute control.
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:52 AM   #45
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I would say it is just much more complex than is presented in Western media. China certainly is not a place where people generally feel oppressed by the government. In fact, I would say it is the total opposite. People generally feel that the government is taking care of them and support the government. The government is generally highly trusted. Also, Chinese cities are generally very safe, standards of living have improved dramatically across the country and China has many dynamic, creative and inspiring things going on. It's an exciting and dynamic place that offers a good standard of living with some world class cities and many good cities.

On the other hand, many negative stories that are shared in Western media are also true, such as what is going on with the Uighurs. This type of thing simply doesn't affect the vast majority of Chinese, and the sharing of info about this type of situation is highly restricted and distorted in China, so Chinese people typically don't concern themselves with it and just trust the government. Unless someone has actually been personally affected by situations such as this, they're not giving thought to it, and if they have been affected they likely don't feel free to share much about it. Also, because in China people do not have any political voice, there is no expectation that people should express their political views and there is not the sense of oppression that someone in the West would feel under the same circumstances.

The state apparatus of control has certainly become much more powerful in recent years however and there has been a simultaneous strengthening of nationalist sentiment that is largely based on a Han ethnic identity, which I believe is dangerous. DrZaius mentions coming to places like CP and getting news, but this is obviously not representative of what the typical Chinese person does. Additionally, while a relatively small percentage of people do access international sources of info that may be critical of China or share contentious info or points of view, the controls over the sharing of that info on Chinese social media are now very powerful. AI is applied in screening messages that people share through apps like wechat, blocking images, text and even voice messages that contain contentious content from ever reaching the intended recipient. There are also laws to prevent the discussion of political situations, government policy or any sensitive info in wechat groups. The individual who first started the chat is legally responsible if anyone in the group shares content that violates the censorship policies. It effectively gets people to censor themselves and their own networks. When there are big events that fo take place in localized contexts, such as riots or demonstrations in a mainland cities, the government is also known to shut down internet access and mobile networks completely while order is restored, preventing news and video getting out to the public.

It is a complex situation. In many ways, Chinese are willing to trade away personal freedoms and political engagement of any kind in order to experience more commercial and economic freedom, so if you visit China as a tourist you will see many thriving and dynamic places with people who are generally happy and feel good about their government, but you will not see the persecuted minorities, hear the voices of those who oppose government actions or be exposed to the darker sides of society. This works well for the majority of Chinese, but there is also danger in it. The control is increasingly absolute, which should concern anyone who doesn't fully trust those who hold that absolute control.
This is totally true. I 100% agree with everything you said.

But your last paragraph is true for all countries. Like I said, no country is perfect. But to pretend countries like Canada or America are on another level is disingenuous. All countries have inequalities.

Anyways people should come see for themselves.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:04 AM   #46
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As for HK, these are the stated demands of the protestors:

Some of these are obviously well out of reach, but something like an independent inquiry into police behaviour is not unreasonable. That is a point on which the government should have scope to bend in HK.
Having a most of my family in Hong Kong, I can't help by feel for them. They have been dealing with a government that is more and more representative of Mainland interests and less aligned with the mainstream Hong Kong economic or political inclinations. This is by design since HK's electoral commission that approves candidates are appointed by the mainland government.

Almost a fifth of HK's population came out to protest the bill and the HK government refused to back down after Beijing indicated they supported her actions. The HK government will not withdraw the bill, they no longer have the autonomy to do so and Beijing will never back down. Carrie Lam, the Chief Secretary of the HK Admin, basically admitted as much by evading that exact question every press conference for the past two months.


With the increasing use of police brutality and mainland forces in crowd suppression, including police directly firing tear gas and bean bag rounds directly at people's heads, and protesters getting hospitalized with severe injuries after entering police custody, I can't imagine protester anger dying down for this any time soon. This will only lead to an even bigger crackdown by the mainland Chinese government. The Chinese government has been showing videos of troops being moved to the Shenzen area on state television.

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Old 08-14-2019, 08:12 AM   #47
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This is totally true. I 100% agree with everything you said.

But your last paragraph is true for all countries. Like I said, no country is perfect. But to pretend countries like Canada or America are on another level is disingenuous. All countries have inequalities.

Anyways people should come see for themselves.
I'm not actually sure what this would prove? A tourist is not going to experience oppression. This just sounds like a "both sides" argument. It is possible for some countries to be worse than others in regards to equality. If you want to learn about China and it's policies, the best source is going to be finding something unbiased from outside China, not whatever the government says.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:18 AM   #48
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It's all about perception. Once you've had a taste of democracy you know what you're missing when you lose it

Hong Kong citizens know this and are fighting for everything last thing. Chinese citizens do not. They consider this government another controlling dynasty like the Ming or the Manchus.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:19 AM   #49
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This is totally true. I 100% agree with everything you said.

But your last paragraph is true for all countries. Like I said, no country is perfect. But to pretend countries like Canada or America are on another level is disingenuous. All countries have inequalities.

Anyways people should come see for themselves.
Well, the last paragraph may be true of all countries to a certain extent, but it is a much more advanced situation in China. This is why being in China may feel as free as being in Canada in daily life for most people, but it is not as free as life in Canada in several ways that would be very important to people coming from liberal democracies. These ways of being free, such as freedom of the press, freedom of expression, political voice, governmental accountability and transparent rule of law are also the types of things important enough to the people of Hong Kong to motivate them to protest. They have even become very important to many Mainland Chinese who moved to HK following the '97 handover.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:27 AM   #50
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A pretty simple experiment could be performed. Post on the internet in as many places as you can "Our current government is corrupt and should be removed to make way for a new one. Our leader is a moron unfit to govern. Who is with me here? Let's work for change!"


Let me know how that goes over in China. We can do it here, too, and we can compare results, if I ever here form you again.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:32 AM   #51
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A pretty simple experiment could be performed. Post on the internet in as many places as you can "Our current government is corrupt and should be removed to make way for a new one. Our leader is a moron unfit to govern. Who is with me here? Let's work for change!"


Let me know how that goes over in China. We can do it here, too, and we can compare results, if I ever here form you again.
If I post it here it gets deleted.

If you post it in Canada you get some Facebook likes.

In the end it both leads to nothing.

You can post all you want. It won't lead to change.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:40 AM   #52
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....
Almost a fifth of HK's population came out to protest the bill and the HK government refused to back down after Beijing indicated they supported her actions. The HK government will not withdraw the bill, they no longer have the autonomy to do so and Beijing will never back down. ...


With the increasing use of police brutality and mainland forces in crowd suppression, including police directly firing tear gas and bean bag rounds directly at people's heads, and protesters getting hospitalized with severe injuries after entering police custody, I can't imagine protester anger dying down for this any time soon. This will only lead to an even bigger crackdown by the mainland Chinese government. The Chinese government has been showing videos of troops being moved to the Shenzen area on state television.
This is a terrible situation. I feel some sympathy for the police in this as well. Although there have been incidents that crossed the line, they are also being hung out to dry. The police are not politicians. They only have so many tools to use, and the tools needed to calm the situation down aren't part of the police toolset. It should be the HK government to engage and use diplomacy and politics to bring the city to peace. Instead the government stays quiet, letting the situation continue to boil as police and protesters have more conflict.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:42 AM   #53
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It's all about perception. Once you've had a taste of democracy you know what you're missing when you lose it
Yeah, democracy under British colonialism in HK is a huge myth. The last British appointed governor, Chris Patten, wanted to implement some democratic reforms in 1992, but his proposal was struck down by the British government. So you have 100 years of British colonialism and in the last five years they make some kind of half assed attempt to implement democracy only to make China look bad. All these kids protesting were born post 1997 and the ones who are waving the British colonial flag have zero idea what they are talking about.

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Old 08-14-2019, 08:46 AM   #54
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If I post it here it gets deleted.

If you post it in Canada you get some Facebook likes.

In the end it both leads to nothing.

You can post all you want. It won't lead to change.

Maybe, or maybe you go a little further and dumps some paint on a poster of the leader, then you get thrown in a mental institution.


Quote:
In July, Dong Yaoqiong live-streamed herself pouring black ink over a poster of Xi Jinping in Shanghai, while criticizing the Communist Party's "oppressive brain control" over the country.
Hours later, she reported seeing police officers at her door and the video — which can still be seen here— was removed from her social media account.
She has not been seen in public since, although Voice of America and Radio Free Asia reported that she was being held at a psychiatric hospital in her home province of Hunan, citing local activists.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...hiatric-ward-6


Read the rest of them, too. Of course, maybe this is all "fake news" but to claim other countries react in similar ways to criticism that China does is just not true.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:47 AM   #55
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China is a major threat to global freedom and security. It amazes me how many mainland people are accepting of the social credit system. If your willing to tow the party line and not speak out about corruption you get a discount on car rentals and can rent a house without a deposit. If you speak out against the powerful you are blacklisted and cannot book train tickets or open a bank account. It's ####ed.

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Old 08-14-2019, 08:51 AM   #56
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Yeah, democracy under British colonialism in HK is a huge myth. The last British appointed governor, Chris Patten, wanted to implement some democratic reforms in 1992, but his proposal was struck down by the British government. So you have 100 years of British colonialism and in the last five years they make some kind of half assed attempt to implement democracy only to make China look bad. All these kids protesting were born post 1997 and the ones who are waving the British colonial flag have zero idea what they are talking about.
It was a bit before that with Martin Lee in the 80s. But at least it had the elements Johnny mentioned above. Rule of law, free press, freedom of expression etc...
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:02 AM   #57
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This is a terrible situation. I feel some sympathy for the police in this as well. Although there have been incidents that crossed the line, they are also being hung out to dry. The police are not politicians. They only have so many tools to use, and the tools needed to calm the situation down aren't part of the police toolset. It should be the HK government to engage and use diplomacy and politics to bring the city to peace. Instead the government stays quiet, letting the situation continue to boil as police and protesters have more conflict.
This is the thing, the HK government has no real autonomy, only the illusion of autonomy to placate the people. When push comes to shove and the Chinese government demands something, the HK government can do nothing except abide by the mainland directives. This is why you see the paralysis in the HK gov't.

As for the police, yes they are not politicians, but they are also not the Hong Kong police of old that for the most part served the people. Those for the most part were placed when the last set of protests happened in 2015. Now you have police who are willing to point shotguns at citizens like this guy



There have also been more and more cases where riot police are being replaced with mainland Chinese police. Like this one where "HK" riot police refer to each other as "comrade" in mandarin... totally from Hong Kong, who are they trying to fool.

Not sure they all deserve as much sympathy given the tactics being deployed.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:13 AM   #58
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This is the thing, the HK government has no real autonomy, only the illusion of autonomy to placate the people. When push comes to shove and the Chinese government demands something, the HK government can do nothing except abide by the mainland directives. This is why you see the paralysis in the HK gov't.

As for the police, yes they are not politicians, but they are also not the Hong Kong police of old that for the most part served the people. Those for the most part were placed when the last set of protests happened in 2015. Now you have police who are willing to point shotguns at citizens like this guy



There have also been more and more cases where riot police are being replaced with mainland Chinese police. Like this one where "HK" riot police refer to each other as "comrade" in mandarin... totally from Hong Kong, who are they trying to fool.

Not sure they all deserve as much sympathy given the tactics being deployed.
Agreed with all of this. I still feel sympathy though, as just like the whole body of protesters can't be represented by the few who have acted really violently, there must be many on the police force who don't want violent conflict. Some clearly are on board with it, and the mixing in of mainland police makes it worse for all, but the situation could have become much more violent long ago if that's what most of the police were after. Both the nonviolent police and the nonviolent protesters are being let down and set up by the government with Beijing pulling the strings.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:27 AM   #59
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This is totally true. I 100% agree with everything you said.

But your last paragraph is true for all countries. Like I said, no country is perfect. But to pretend countries like Canada or America are on another level is disingenuous. All countries have inequalities.

Anyways people should come see for themselves.
So we can talk about Tiananmen Square and June 4th without some filter flagging CP?
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:01 AM   #60
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I've lived in mainland China for 8 years now. For the first 5 years I didn't use a VPN and got all the info I needed. Heck it's one of the reasons I used CalgaryPuck because you can get any info and it's not blocked.

I totally agree with you about western media bias. For sure it's not perfect in China, but guess what...No country is.

I read Reuters and CBC news it makes HK sound like a warzone. Seriously, protesters shutdown Pearson Airport two days in a row what's the reaction from Canadians going to be?

I returned from China one time during the G20 being in Toronto. Way less people and the police sure seemed extreme to me.

Before people judge what it's like in China o really suggest first coming here. It's really feels just as free as Canada. And this is coming from a guy with a Canadian maple.leaf tartoo on his back.
I mean sure their communist government has politically murdered and willfully starved to death tens of millions of people within living memory without having to pay a single karmic or political cent of reconciliation for any of it, but hey who's perfect? John A Macdonald made some off-colour remarks over 150 years ago so really Canada is every bit as bad when you think about it.
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