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Old 08-13-2019, 03:24 PM   #21
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Yes, both sides. Contrary to popular belief, not every Chinese citizen in China is miserable. The way western media portrays China, you'd think living conditions there were like North Korea. At the end of the day, you're not going to change how China governs, it's a communist country. That's how they govern. And for the most part, they've taken a pretty hands off approach to Hong Kong, just like how they've done with Macau, with the expectation of full integration into China by 2047. It's a deadend road if protesters are expecting some sort of Hong Kong independence from China. You're just going to rock the 1 party 2 system boat, and China's just going to take a harder stance if this continues.
Well, the Ughyurs are pretty miserable.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/7/...t_surveillance
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:26 PM   #22
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And let's not forget how they just kinda took Tibet.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:27 PM   #23
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And let's not forget how they just kinda took Tibet.
Come on, Fuzz, both sides. Both sides.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:41 PM   #24
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"not sure why you should protest, it's just how they goverN"

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Old 08-13-2019, 03:45 PM   #25
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Come on, Fuzz, both sides. Both sides.
Right, sorry I forgot about the threat Tibet posed, with their prayer flags, and their warmongering ways. Assimilating them was what was best. *Borg logic*
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:51 PM   #26
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"Don't protest, it's a dead end road"

Well that ends it, I now accept our communist overlords.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:58 PM   #27
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I didn't realize the Hong Kong protests had anything to do with Tibet or the Ughyurs. I'm talking about both sides of this specific protest happening in Hong Kong, and addressing that.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:00 PM   #28
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Yes, both sides. Contrary to popular belief, not every Chinese citizen in China is miserable. The way western media portrays China, you'd think living conditions there were like North Korea. At the end of the day, you're not going to change how China governs, it's a communist country. That's how they govern. And for the most part, they've taken a pretty hands off approach to Hong Kong, just like how they've done with Macau, with the expectation of full integration into China by 2047. It's a deadend road if protesters are expecting some sort of Hong Kong independence from China. You're just going to rock the 1 party 2 system boat, and China's just going to take a harder stance if this continues.
I was in China last year for a kung fu tournament and I was talking to a couple of Americans there. They hadn't been there before, but they expressed that same sentiment. Basically, the media seems to give the impression that its bleak and dreary and everyone is terrified of what the government can do. I don't doubt that there is some of that, to be clear. But the reality feels quite different. It doesn't seem like a communist society, at least not in the way that I would expect. There is a lot of commerce and it seems similar to what we have here. I'm sure there are differences and I'm sure I haven't seen everything to know fully about the human rights abuses and things like that, but those were just my impressions.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:12 PM   #29
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I was in China last year for a kung fu tournament and I was talking to a couple of Americans there. They hadn't been there before, but they expressed that same sentiment. Basically, the media seems to give the impression that its bleak and dreary and everyone is terrified of what the government can do.
The major cities might seem ok, but the impression I get is that the rural areas and the far provinces are extremely depressed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:18 PM   #30
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The major cities might seem ok, but the impression I get is that the rural areas and the far provinces are extremely depressed.
I think it is the contrary. Rural China is grateful that the central government pumping money for infrastructure and other improvements over the past 30 years. Without the help from the central government, farming villages and far away rural areas will literally be stuck in the 40's....
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:20 PM   #31
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The major cities might seem ok, but the impression I get is that the rural areas and the far provinces are extremely depressed.
Yeah and it's enormous, so I can only speak to where I've been. But I was in a small center in 2017 and it seemed quite fine to me as well. Even last year in one smaller city it was different, but it didn't have an oppressive feel about it. I guess it's a little bit backwards and still developing in some areas, but I think that's just the reality of the largest migration in human history (from rural to urban) and the growing pains that come with that.

Although, there was an armoured police vehicle that was prominently placed, so while it felt incredibly safe to me, the long arm of the law was clearly close by.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:32 PM   #32
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What???? They literally don't let people go on internet sites that are foreign so they can control people.

What is going on in this thread.

The Great Firewall of China (GFW) is the combination of legislative actions and technologies enforced by the People's Republic of China to regulate the Internet domestically. Its role in the Internet censorship in China is to block access to selected foreign websites and to slow down cross-border internet traffic.[1] The effect includes: limiting access to foreign information sources, blocking foreign internet tools (e.g. Google search, Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia,[2][3] and others) and mobile apps, and requiring foreign companies to adapt to domestic regulations.[4][5] Besides censorship, the GFW has also influenced the development of China's internal internet economy by nurturing domestic companies[6] and reducing the effectiveness of products from foreign internet companies.[
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:38 PM   #33
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I didn't realize the Hong Kong protests had anything to do with Tibet or the Ughyurs. I'm talking about both sides of this specific protest happening in Hong Kong, and addressing that.
I think the point is, the past and present has shown that protesting China doesn't really get you anywhere. The central government is going to win this one, too.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:50 PM   #34
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I don’t think many people realize that we essentially get the “Fox News” spin from all our media regarding China or the Asia’s in general. Having spent over 3 years over there it’s not what you think. I can confidently say Canada is much more where I’d rather be though. However it’s not nearly what some of the people here are portraying it. and my internet worked just fine btw lol.

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Old 08-14-2019, 04:37 AM   #35
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It pains me terribly to see what's happening in HK these days. Hong Kong has been a second home to me for the last few years, I'm still an HK resident and it's a place I was hoping to move back to next year. It's a special city in the world and I feel like I am watching its death in real time.

I don't support violent protest, but the percentage of protesters that have been engaged in aggressive violent action is a small sliver of the whole. It's also a case where it's difficult to tell how much is genuine recklessness and how much of a role is being played by agent provocateur. Having 2 million people peacefully take to the streets and ongoing large peaceful protests clearly suggests that the concerns are held by a much larger body of the population than just the relatively few violent protesters though.

The response of the HK government has been useless throughout all of this and Carrie Lam's inability to even answer the question of whether or not she has autonomy to act as the Chief Executive suggests there will be no response or engagement from the HK government. Beijing is in control of the response and is not going to bend.

The Chinese state media has been building such a dramatically negative narrative about what's going on there that the support for mainland Chinese military intervention is higher and higher inside China. Chinese media is representing the protestors as anarchic violent rioters that are destroying HK society and as also hated by the residents of HK. They're also really playing up nationalist sentiments about around the “one China” idea to further rile up domestic appetite for intervention and there has been no shortage of media being shared in China of troops and military equipment on the Shenzhen border doing military exercises set to soaring overtures as background music to instill pride in the Chinese military. The fact that the majority of mainland Chinese have no way to know more than one side of the story and that what they're being shown is designed to stir up a demand for intervention doesn't bode well.

It feels like watching a repeat of 30 years back and I'm afraid the HK I love may not be there to return to a year from now.

There is video of a Chinese general speaking in June of this year about the situation in HK, saying that the people of HK need to be brainwashed and referencing what Deng Xiaoping said back before the handover that first HK just needs to be taken and then all the promises about how it would be treated could be broken later. This, I think, is the approach now being moved towards under Xi Jingping.

As the rule of law dies in HK, HK dies. There will be more capital flight, more businesses relocating to places like Singapore and HK could have a currency crisis as it loses the peg to the USD. This death of the city will be used domestically in China to erase the memory of HK as a thriving city with Western influence and Western rule of law, clearing that blotch upon Beijing's face and pride. It will also be used to show how Western powers can't be relied upon by Asian allies in the region, thereby weakening confidence in American influence in the region and putting more pressure on other countries in the region to be close to China.

I really, really hope this is not how it plays out, but things are looking pretty grim right now
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:41 AM   #36
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I don’t think many people realize that we essentially get the “Fox News” spin from all our media regarding China or the Asia’s in general. Having spent over 3 years over there it’s not what you think. I can confidently say Canada is much more where I’d rather be though. However it’s not nearly what some of the people here are portraying it. and my internet worked just fine btw lol.
If you were in HK your internet worked just fine. If you were in the mainland that's just factually inaccurate unless you only ever visited permitted websites and services.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:53 AM   #37
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If you were in HK your internet worked just fine. If you were in the mainland that's just factually inaccurate unless you only ever visited permitted websites and services.
Yeah but it's not that hard to just get a VPN and do whatever you want.

It's stupid they do it but in the end it is what it is.

I think YenMan has the most realistic view.

The extradition legislation was worth protesting. They got it suspended which is a victory.

Now they are just protesting for the sake of protesting. They don't have a real cause other than "democracy"

The majority of HKers are actually against the protests and I'd say they have zero support here in mainland China.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:31 AM   #38
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Yeah but it's not that hard to just get a VPN and do whatever you want.

It's stupid they do it but in the end it is what it is.

I think YenMan has the most realistic view.

The extradition legislation was worth protesting. They got it suspended which is a victory.

Now they are just protesting for the sake of protesting. They don't have a real cause other than "democracy"

The majority of HKers are actually against the protests and I'd say they have zero support here in mainland China.
Well, the vast majority of Chinese, even in first tier cities, don't get VPNs. Also, what you can share and discuss in social media groups on Chinese platforms is not free even with a VPN, so the controls are powerful and real.

As for HK, these are the stated demands of the protestors:

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  • The complete withdrawal of the proposed extradition bill
  • The government to withdraw the use of the word “riot” in relation to protests
  • The unconditional release of arrested protesters and charges against them dropped
  • An independent inquiry into police behaviour
  • Implementation of genuine universal suffrage
Some of these are obviously well out of reach, but something like an independent inquiry into police behaviour is not unreasonable. That is a point on which the government should have scope to bend in HK.

Also, while I agree that there's almost no support for the protests in the mainland, I'm not sure the majority of HKers are opposed. I think many, many HKers support the intent of the protests even if they disagree with the violence and disagree with some of the demonstrations.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:08 AM   #39
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On the ground academic survey data about the HK protesters:

https://sites.google.com/view/antielabsurvey-eng
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:20 AM   #40
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If you were in HK your internet worked just fine. If you were in the mainland that's just factually inaccurate unless you only ever visited permitted websites and services.
I forgot about the internet issue, actually. The first time I was there I had a VPN, so I didn't notice at all. The second time I didn't go that route and I did have a bunch of sites that were offlimits. You could use Google Maps, but not Gmail for example. (well you could access Gmail for things you already had but nothing new would come through or go out). That's the kind of thing that you don't notice as much as tourist though. I'm not wasting my trip on my phone, so it's an inconvenience, but you can deal with that.

But you've lived there much longer than the limited time I've spent there, so don't you think that there's some truth to the idea that the media here overstates how things are in Mainland China?
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