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Old 04-23-2019, 09:36 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
oh god not this again
Exactly how I feel about this thread: there is a dark current of "whataboutism" flowing through this thread that is both disingenuous and ugly. You can see Republicans and right-wingers prepping and practising their Fox News-style propaganda already:

- Bernie's taxes!
- Too far left!
- Lose the center!
- Ignore the workers!
- So PC!
- Too gay!
- Out of touch!
- Socialism!
- Identity politics!1!11!

The reason why this thread has been separated from the American politics thread is that the Republican party in the states has no excuse for their shameful subversion of democracy, and so attacking Democrats is all that's left. Any discussion of Democratic candidates should be in the context of what they're up against, and in the context of American politics more generally.

I mean, it's immensely successful: Trump won the last election. HRC's character was assassinated for the better part of 30 years. Benghazi and buttery emails seemed like real things to be worried about, somehow less worrying than the many real evils of DJT.

Democrats fall into this trap time and again. No matter which candidate it is, I think they'll win, and I hope they do. But it wasn't HRC that lost the last election, it was that Republican propaganda is very powerful stuff and won it because of acceptance of reframing like is happening in this thread.

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Old 04-23-2019, 09:46 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by AltaGuy View Post
Exactly how I feel about this thread: there is a dark current of "whataboutism" flowing through this thread that is both disingenuous and ugly. You can see Republicans and right-wingers prepping and practising their Fox News-style propaganda already:

- Bernie's taxes!
- Too far left!
- Lose the center!
- Ignore the workers!
- So PC!
- Too gay!
- Out of touch!
- Identity politics!1!11!

The reason why this thread has been separated from the American politics thread is that the Republican party in the states has no excuse for their shameful subversion of democracy, and so attacking Democrats is all that's left. Any discussion of Democratic candidates should be in the context of what they're up against, and in the context of American politics more generally.

I mean, it's immensely successful: Trump won the last election. HRC's character was assassinated for the better part of 30 years. Benghazi and buttery emails seemed like real things to be worried about, somehow less worrying than the many real evils of DJT.

Democrats fall into this trap time and again. No matter which candidate it is, I think they'll win, and I hope they do. But it wasn't HRC that lost the last election, it was that Republican propaganda is very powerful stuff and won it because of acceptance of reframing like is happening in this thread.
You forgot
SOCIALSIM

also, Trump supporters are really really dumb.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:54 AM   #43
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He said the increases he’s looking to legislate would apply to him as well. How does him not currently paying additional taxes make him a hypocrite? It’s not as if him paying supplemental taxes will get everyone else to do so.
His whole shtick is raging about how the 1% don't pay their fair share and that tax cuts for the rich is immoral. Then, when it comes down to it, Bernie Sanders, a member of the 1%, pays exactly $0.00 over the minimum that he is legally required to. If he thinks that tax cuts for the rich is wrong, and that someone like him should be paying more, there is nothing stopping him from paying more income tax, yet he doesn't. You don't see that as hypocritical? I think the man is a downright fraud to be honest with you.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:00 AM   #44
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There is no minimum or maximum tax you pay. Your tax due is what it is.
Want him to pay more tax? Raise the tax rate on higher income earners.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Ark2 View Post
His whole shtick is raging about how the 1% don't pay their fair share and that tax cuts for the rich is immoral. Then, when it comes down to it, Bernie Sanders, a member of the 1%, pays exactly $0.00 over the minimum that he is legally required to. If he thinks that tax cuts for the rich is wrong, and that someone like him should be paying more, there is nothing stopping him from paying more income tax, yet he doesn't. You don't see that as hypocritical? I think the man is a downright fraud to be honest with you.
How much “more” than is required should he pay in order for him not to be a fraud in your view?
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:05 AM   #46
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How do you voluntarily pay more in taxes? You pay the taxes that you owe and that's it.

I am not a high income earner, but I feel as though we can all pay more in taxes... Particularly sales taxes. Should I then calculate an extra 3% on every purchase and insist that the vendor take my money and donate it to the CRA?

What a completely silly argument.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:09 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ark2 View Post
His whole shtick is raging about how the 1% don't pay their fair share and that tax cuts for the rich is immoral. Then, when it comes down to it, Bernie Sanders, a member of the 1%, pays exactly $0.00 over the minimum that he is legally required to. If he thinks that tax cuts for the rich is wrong, and that someone like him should be paying more, there is nothing stopping him from paying more income tax, yet he doesn't. You don't see that as hypocritical? I think the man is a downright fraud to be honest with you.
Sanders wants ALL high income earners and large corporations to pay more taxes. How does him alone paying additional taxes achieve this? It wouldn’t even come close to addressing issues like amazon paying 0$ in federal taxes despite making bilions in profits while receiving tax refunds of hundreds of millions. Paying more taxes into an obviously broken system doesn’t fix the problem at all.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:11 AM   #48
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But it wasn't HRC that lost the last election, it was that Republican propaganda is very powerful stuff and won it because of acceptance of reframing like is happening in this thread.
Oh, come on. Not putting any of the onus on the losing candidate because of “Republican propaganda” is what’s disingenuous. The DNC was a complete & utter #### show the whole election. Yeah, the Republicans were putting out smear campaigns, but so were the Democrats. To say otherwise is incredibly dishonest. The DNC needs to address these issues if they want to win, and it's not "ugly" or "disingenuous" to point these issues out if we want them to win.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by puffnstuff View Post
There is no minimum or maximum tax you pay. Your tax due is what it is.
Want him to pay more tax? Raise the tax rate on higher income earners.
Your marginal tax rate applied to your income, minus any deductions, is what you pay. That is the minimum amount of tax that you have to pay. You can also choose to pay more. If you personally think that you aren't paying enough in taxes, you can voluntarily pay more. You don't need to raise the tax rate in order to pay more. As for what I think Bernie should have to pay in order to not be a hypocrite, I think he should pay the amount that he is suggesting that people in his income bracket should pay. Is it really unreasonable to expect that Bernie "man of the people" Sanders actually lead by example?
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:12 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by _Q_ View Post
How do you voluntarily pay more in taxes? You pay the taxes that you owe and that's it.

I am not a high income earner, but I feel as though we can all pay more in taxes... Particularly sales taxes. Should I then calculate an extra 3% on every purchase and insist that the vendor take my money and donate it to the CRA?

What a completely silly argument.

https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/23779454


You can pay down the debt! Not quite the same as voluntarily paying taxes.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:14 AM   #51
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Classic echo chamber. Sanders should not have any money, he should write extra cheques to the government. He says he wants more taxes so he should pay extra taxes. The logic is pretty simple here you sycophants. He says he wants to help the environment but he also drives a car. Hypocrite much? He flies on airplanes! I bet he even eats food, and everyone knows food is grown and people work to get it to the store. Some of those people are underpaid but Sanders claims he wants a higher minimum wage. His hypocrisy knows no bounds. Sickening.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:15 AM   #52
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The DNC was a complete & utter #### show the whole election.
how so?
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:24 AM   #53
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Oh, come on. Not putting any of the onus on the losing candidate because of “Republican propaganda” is what’s disingenuous. The DNC was a complete & utter #### show the whole election. Yeah, the Republicans were putting out smear campaigns, but so were the Democrats. To say otherwise is incredibly dishonest. The DNC needs to address these issues if they want to win, and it's not "ugly" or "disingenuous" to point these issues out if we want them to win.
Do you disagree with me when I say that HRC was a far better candidate than DJT and should have won the presidency?

Quote:
Yeah, the Republicans were putting out smear campaigns, but so were the Democrats. To say otherwise is incredibly dishonest.
False equivalency is false. Provide me with some evidence.

Quote:
The DNC needs to address these issues if they want to win, and it's not "ugly" or "disingenuous" to point these issues out if we want them to win.
You have proven my point. You're focused on the Democrats as if anything any of these candidates could or will do would be more disqualifying than who and what DJT is.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:40 AM   #54
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How many different iterations have I heard the phrase, and that's why the Dems are going to lose in 2020.

because they are mean to magas on the interwebs.
because they are mean to djt.
because they are investigating djt.
because they are saying djt is mentally unstable.

is just a small sampling.

just seems to be another maga talking point, that is geared towards convincing themselves they are victims, along with their dear leader, and they will defeat the nasty Dems.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:29 AM   #55
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His whole shtick is raging about how the 1% don't pay their fair share and that tax cuts for the rich is immoral. Then, when it comes down to it, Bernie Sanders, a member of the 1%, pays exactly $0.00 over the minimum that he is legally required to. If he thinks that tax cuts for the rich is wrong, and that someone like him should be paying more, there is nothing stopping him from paying more income tax, yet he doesn't. You don't see that as hypocritical? I think the man is a downright fraud to be honest with you.
I have to say, this is one of the more bizarre arguments I’ve heard.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:48 AM   #56
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Classic echo chamber. Sanders should not have any money, he should write extra cheques to the government. He says he wants more taxes so he should pay extra taxes. The logic is pretty simple here you sycophants. He says he wants to help the environment but he also drives a car. Hypocrite much? He flies on airplanes! I bet he even eats food, and everyone knows food is grown and people work to get it to the store. Some of those people are underpaid but Sanders claims he wants a higher minimum wage. His hypocrisy knows no bounds. Sickening.
Ah, so because you can spout a bunch of hyperbolic nonsense, Bernie shouldn't be held to any standards. Does this apply to all candidates, or just octogenarian socialists?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:53 AM   #57
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Ah, so because you can spout a bunch of hyperbolic nonsense, Bernie shouldn't be held to any standards. Does this apply to all candidates, or just octogenarian socialists?
Make no mistake I don’t even like Bernie it’s just that your argument is dumb as hell. Good luck with tilting at those windmills though.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:01 PM   #58
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Ah, so because you can spout a bunch of hyperbolic nonsense, Bernie shouldn't be held to any standards. Does this apply to all candidates, or just octogenarian socialists?
He is being held to the same standard as everyone else in a broken system. He’s advocating to change that system, which will impact him financially by making him pay more taxes, and you believe this makes him a hypocrite because he won’t pay more taxes now into a system which he believes is broken?

Also if you’re going to criticize his age you should at the very least look into how old he actually is.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:06 PM   #59
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They elected a black guy with a middle eastern name twice, a women just won the popular vote and a jew may have won it all if given the chance.
So two of your three examples LOST
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:09 PM   #60
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LOL at expecting anyone, let alone Bernie, to pay more tax than they legally need to.
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