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Old 08-07-2019, 03:58 PM   #3361
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You said multiple times throughout the year that Glencross would be getting 4M+ in the open market, which would be closer to 5M with today's cap. Instead he got 0M. How much do you think Frolik is worth then?
They are completely different scenarios. Glencross slowed down, couldnt stay healthy, wasnt producing anymore, one dimensional player, wanted to retire.

Frolik is incredible 2 way forward who hasnt slowed down in any of these areas.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:08 PM   #3362
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They are completely different scenarios. Glencross slowed down, couldnt stay healthy, wasnt producing anymore, one dimensional player, wanted to retire.

Frolik is incredible 2 way forward who hasnt slowed down in any of these areas.
Glencross didn't want to retire - he was looking for a contract. When he didn't get one he had a PTO with Toronto and still didn't get a deal. Then he tried with the Avs and didn't get a deal.

The previous year scored 13 goals and 35 points in 71 games (not quite as good as Frolik's last year but better than his previous one), and Washington paid Calgary a 2nd and a 3rd.

But I'm not saying they are the same player. What I'm saying is that Glencross was still a guy who could probably have played for a team. But he either didn't get the salary he was looking for or teams couldn't fit him in between the upper guys and the ELCs. And it's only getting worse because of huge RFA contracts.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:41 PM   #3363
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...83&postcount=1

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=962



You said multiple times throughout the year that Glencross would be getting 4M+ in the open market, which would be closer to 5M with today's cap. Instead he got 0M. How much do you think Frolik is worth then?
I see we've hit the 'bringing up five year old threads to win the argument' part of the summer.

JFC man, what do you want me to say to that? I swung and missed on Glencross - how was I to know he was the guy who wasn't going to get paid, every other reasonably productive middle six player generally does. I also guessed Gio would get 4/$32M. Guess there's a reason I'm posting on a forum instead of running a team.

Frolik is better than Glencross. He's always been better than Glencross. Frolik has nine 30 point seasons under his belt. Glencross a) doesn't have nine NHL seasons period and b) has five 30 point seasons. The possession numbers are so lopsided they don't warrant a comparison.

Frolik is not done, and looks nowhere close to it. Glencross looked like he might have been done, wasn't willing to take what the NHL was offering, and walked away from the game. More power to him.

As to Frolik's worth: honestly, I would take him back for another four years at the exact same cap hit. He doesn't produce enough offense to be worth much more, but he's everything you want from a secondary pro hockey player. When he plays 80 games, he almost always gets 40 points, and he does it while killing penalties and never playing on the man advantage.

Finally, please don't go back in time to November of 2014 and hold me accountable for some musings about a free agency period that was seven months away when I wrote them.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:02 PM   #3364
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I wouldn't say any of those players are comparable to Frolik at all. Ennis is a small one dimensional winger who can't even put up points anymore and horrible possession stats. Brassard has slowed down a lot, doesn't produce anymore, injury prone and mediocre possession stats, gardiner is a d man, and maroon has never even been close to as good as frolik.
I'm not comparing them as players. I'm saying that veteran middle six players (or middle pairing Dmen) (which is all of those guys) are getting squeezed out. It's interesting when you look at UFA signings - there's hardly any at that age, other than stars. You have a fair number of guys who produced OK last year but are still unsigned because they are in their 30s. And they will all sign for much lower salaries, I bet. And the guys who are getting signed are younger, to the greatest extent.

Frolik had a bounceback year last year, but for the year prior you'd have a pretty good argument his stats were about to decline from the norm.

I would bet that Frolik's next contract begins with a 2 at best.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:46 PM   #3365
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I'm not comparing them as players. I'm saying that veteran middle six players (or middle pairing Dmen) (which is all of those guys) are getting squeezed out. It's interesting when you look at UFA signings - there's hardly any at that age, other than stars. You have a fair number of guys who produced OK last year but are still unsigned because they are in their 30s. And they will all sign for much lower salaries, I bet. And the guys who are getting signed are younger, to the greatest extent.

Frolik had a bounceback year last year, but for the year prior you'd have a pretty good argument his stats were about to decline from the norm.

I would bet that Frolik's next contract begins with a 2 at best.
If he's coming in that cheap we might as well re-sign him hard to beat that plus cap savings even on the third line.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:46 PM   #3366
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Frolik is better than Glencross. He's always been better than Glencross. Frolik has nine 30 point seasons under his belt. Glencross a) doesn't have nine NHL seasons period and b) has five 30 point seasons. The possession numbers are so lopsided they don't warrant a comparison.
Okay, so if you thought that the inferior Glencross was going to make 4M+ for 5 years, what are you expecting the much better Frolik to be commanding this summer?

I think it's a bit revisionist history is all. Glencross went from a surefire NHL player, more than just a role one, to out of the league at 32 after pricing himself out. That was literally the question being responded to.

"What are some comparable players who have been priced out of the league or forced to take low contracts?"

My answer was Glencross. Entering the off-season no one expected that Glencross would be forced to retire and not get a contract, despite his poor second half of the season he was still expected to just take a paycut. Had Glencross asked for a 3M contract to start the 2014-2015 season from the Flames, the Flames are probably just getting his buyout off the books.

Even back then these 'role' players were getting shut out. Young star players were no longer signing sweetheart bridge deals so there was less cap to go around. There became a market of haves and have-not vets because you can't afford to pay an 8th forward 4M when you need that money to sign a star RFA, so you opt for that rookie making peanuts to be a replacement.

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Old 08-07-2019, 06:10 PM   #3367
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Came for trade rumours... left disappointed.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:13 PM   #3368
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Recent signings comparable to what Frolik might get if he were to sign a contract today

Filpulla (35 yrs old) - 2 years - 3M per, Doesn't produce anymore, old, bad possession stats

Simmonds (30 years old) - 1 year 5M, Seemingly rapid decline as he is now slow as molasses, bad possession guy

Johanssen (28 years old) - 2 years 4.5M per, Good player, not very good possession guy, similar production to Frolik

Nyquvist (29 years old) - 4 years 5.5M per Decent possession stats, slightly better offensive production than Frolik

If I were to guess Froliks next contract, there would be multiple teams willing to pay him around 4.3M per over 3 more seasons.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:17 PM   #3369
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Nyquvist (29 years old) - 4 years 5.5M per Decent possession stats, slightly better offensive production than Frolik
Slightly? 60 points compared to 40 points isn't slightly in my opinion.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:41 PM   #3370
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Came for trade rumours... left disappointed.
Should make a thread strictly for rumours and another one called NHL2k19 trade deals and Iím drunk and this makes sense to me trades.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:54 PM   #3371
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Finally, please don't go back in time to November of 2014 and hold me accountable for some musings about a free agency period that was seven months away when I wrote them.
#### that. I’m not aiming this at you but I think it’s ok to get called out on occasion. Otherwise we might just as well be a bunch of stoners spouting off from our parent’s basement, man.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:04 PM   #3372
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Okay, so if you thought that the inferior Glencross was going to make 4M+ for 5 years, what are you expecting the much better Frolik to be commanding this summer?
I already answered you. Read what I wrote.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:06 PM   #3373
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Slightly? 60 points compared to 40 points isn't slightly in my opinion.
That was one season. The rest of his career is close to froliks offensive production. All while playing more offensive role than frolik with plenty of PP time
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:11 PM   #3374
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That was one season. The rest of his career is close to froliks offensive production. All while playing more offensive role than frolik with plenty of PP time
The most important season. The latest season is weighted so heavily in UFA negotiations. I mean, Glencross lost out on a 4M+ 5 year contract due to his last season.

If we're talking about who was the better player after they retire, fair enough, but when it comes to UFA it's pretty much all about what have you done for me now. Especially for these non-star players.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:19 PM   #3375
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The most important season. The latest season is weighted so heavily in UFA negotiations. I mean, Glencross lost out on a 4M+ 5 year contract due to his last season.

If we're talking about who was the better player after they retire, fair enough, but when it comes to UFA it's pretty much all about what have you done for me now. Especially for these non-star players.
Yes, and that's why Nyquist got 5.5M per and 4 years. I said frolik would get 4.3M for 3 years if he were to sign a deal today.

Also Frolik got an average of 4 seconds pp time per game whereas Nyquist gets over 2 minutes per game, which is the biggest difference in their offensive production. Frolik is used for a separate (just as important) role, while still producing 5on5.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:35 PM   #3376
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#### that. Iím not aiming this at you but I think itís ok to get called out on occasion. Otherwise we might just as well be a bunch of stoners spouting off from our parentís basement, man.
I'll have you know I live on the 4th floor.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:21 PM   #3377
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Johansson's contract takes him to one year younger than Frolik is now. Essentially he signed Frolik's last contract, which people thought was a tiny bit rich at the time.

Simmonds, for some reason, is attractive to a bunch of teams for intangibles. I don't see it, but even posters here liked him a lot.

Filpulla - yeah he had similar stats. But IMO he's a bigger name, has a slightly bigger rep. But also paid too much.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:38 PM   #3378
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As a point of comparison when talking about resigning Frolik, who would you rather have; Ferland or Frolik on Ferland's new deal?
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:38 PM   #3379
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You guys know you can have your squabble privately right? Some of us refresh this page desperate for hockey rumours in summer...not curtis glencross potential from 4 years ago.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:45 PM   #3380
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I second the request for a separate rumours only thread. I come here to see what’s new but it’s just crap.
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