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Old 05-07-2010, 02:41 PM   #41
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I just love this argument.

They don't do something, unless they do, then they did but they didn't mean to or had no choice.

The kid moved up the roster when given a chance. Period. Do you honestly think other organizations don't go through similar stories when their youth make the grade? Injury = opportunity. The difference between Backlund and others in Calgary? He did something with it.
yet even after Backlund was playing so well when he did get the chance, the other Sutter still sat him in favor of Craig Conroy when Langkow was healthy again. the whole Sutter family just seems stuck in the pre-lockout style of thinking, where vets always trump rookies

a perfect example of why i'm in favor of bringing in Yzerman, if Darryl Sutter was in charge of building Team Canada do you honestly think players like Toews or Doughty would have been on the roster? the Sutters have been talking about culture change in the Flames dressing room for awhile now, but they're still not ready to make the moves that would really bring change
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:44 PM   #42
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This team could look really good with the addition of some entry-level contract contributors. It makes the stress of what the core earns less of an issue. I'd love to see some of the young guys get a chance.
I usually don't like to bash guys, but you gotta think there are people that can contribute what Kotalik brings for way less. We need to unload some D-Men, since we know full well that our prospect strength is on the blue line.
Good to see that young line playing well in Abby too. I hope Wahl and Bouma turn out to be good picks.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:45 PM   #43
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I guess what I'm trying to say is here is just too much caution in Calgary when it comes to young players.
To me it's nothing to do with caution and everything to do with an overly conservative approach. Sutters prefer tried and true over unknown potential and a plugger that plays hard will always get the benefit of the doubt over a skill player. We watched Moss do absolutely nothing all season yet get a regular shift wile guys like Dawes, Boyd, Backlund were all benched. When you put a guy like Conroy on the 1st line you are clearly trying not to lose the game rather than trying to win the game. We saw too much of that this year and the conservative approach of this organization needs to go by the wayside if they are ever going to be anything more than a 6-12 conference team.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:49 PM   #44
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a perfect example of why i'm in favor of bringing in Yzerman, if Darryl Sutter was in charge of building Team Canada do you honestly think players like Toews or Doughty would have been on the roster? the Sutters have been talking about culture change in the Flames dressing room for awhile now, but they're still not ready to make the moves that would really bring change
I garentee that Ryan Smyth and at least another vet would have been on the team and Doughty wouldn't have had a sniff of a chance if Darryl Sutter was in charge. You could argue that they could have won with older players and they might have but they won gold with younger players which means even more moving forward into the next Olympics. Sutters don't think about moving forward.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:56 PM   #45
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The more we see young guys step up the more you have to think we need to give our young guys a shot.
Doughty is a great example, but is perhaps too much of a stud to use in a general prospect argument.
Look at PK Subban. I can't think of a much more pressure filled spot to be in than the playoffs in Montreal, and he's playing pretty darn well. Even the Hamrlik criticizers have seemed to put a sock in it since they've been paired together.
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:03 PM   #46
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I think there is something to this argument but it is being over-stated. Apart from Backlund (who I think the Flames handled fairly well to ensure he develops an overall game) - which other prospect has been pushing for a job?

Pelech I think is close but his season was a write off because of a pretty darn serious medical problem.
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:06 PM   #47
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I feel like the AHL isn't always a good way to gauge whether or not a guy will perform in the NHL. So even if guys haven't been straight up knocking down the door, some should be given a chance.
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:14 PM   #48
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I think there is something to this argument but it is being over-stated. Apart from Backlund (who I think the Flames handled fairly well to ensure he develops an overall game) - which other prospect has been pushing for a job?

Pelech I think is close but his season was a write off because of a pretty darn serious medical problem.
And to add to this point, when given the chance, how many younger players have actually made use of their chance? Lombardi, Boyd, Kobasew all were given chances to fulfill roles on this team, and none of them stpped up and really got the job. Lombardi being the one exception in that he filled the #3 center spot exceptionally well, but we didn't need a #3 center, we needed a #1 - which is why he was dealt for Jokinen (bust).
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:21 PM   #49
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I have to agree. It was pretty clear that Backlund could offer more than Langkow and Conroy before he was placed in the pressbox. I know the Sutter boys are loyal to their vets but like he said if Lankow doesn't get hurt Backlund would still be an unknown quantity which may have had to begin next season with the Heat if he didn't have a lights out training camp whereas now they have a good idea he can play.
go ahead agree ...

the fact that the two of you agree with each other is almost dangerous in my mind, but I'll leave that.

Sutter (Brent) actually talked to this in Minnesota, how he was torn because Backlund was playing well but because they were on the road in a big game he just felt Conroy was the better option with the last change not being on his side.

A reason.

Agree with it or not, I couldn't care less. But this assumption that Calgary/Sutters don't give youth a chance is without merit, regardless of how you want to dice it.
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:36 PM   #50
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Welcome to the draft debate v. 5.06.
I'll just say this - the fact that we continuously add guys like Johnson, Eriksson, Zyuzin, Staios, Kronwall, Mayers, McCarty, Stuart, Dawes, Sjostrom, etc means either (a) Sutter is conservative and doesn't trust youngsters or (b) our drafting and development does in fact suck. You can't argue that our drafting/development is good AND that Sutter is open to youngsters, as evidence clearly suggests otherwise. The fact that we kept Kronwall and dumped Stralman is suggestive of something...
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:39 PM   #51
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Agree with it or not, I couldn't care less. But this assumption that Calgary/Sutters don't give youth a chance is without merit, regardless of how you want to dice it.
Even though one can use valid arguments for Sutters actions at the time, I think the year that we lost Taratukhin and Giordano to the Russians, made me believe that he may be too rigid in his handling of the youth.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:05 PM   #52
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Welcome to the draft debate v. 5.06.
I'll just say this - the fact that we continuously add guys like Johnson, Eriksson, Zyuzin, Staios, Kronwall, Mayers, McCarty, Stuart, Dawes, Sjostrom, etc means either (a) Sutter is conservative and doesn't trust youngsters or (b) our drafting and development does in fact suck. You can't argue that our drafting/development is good AND that Sutter is open to youngsters, as evidence clearly suggests otherwise. The fact that we kept Kronwall and dumped Stralman is suggestive of something...
Check and mate. I don't care how low in the 1st round we draft, there should be more out of the Flames drafts.

Then as far as development, occasionally you get players who are late bloomers, such as Bourque, or (ugh) Burrows, but for the most part, by age 22, most players who are going to make any sort of an impact in the NHL, are playing in the NHL already.

Now I'm not sure about anybody else, but even if you just HAD to move Stralman, I would have given Pelech a chance, despite a sub-par training camp, if not to start the season, then a bit later on, when Pardy was playing....well not good. He's capable of playing quite well, as we saw with the injuries in spring of 09. David Moss and Dustin Boyd were called up a few seasons ago, not due to injuries, but due to crap play from other Flames. Moss stayed, and I find it disappointing that that instance was the only one since the lockout that Darryl called up players from the farm to fill in for under performers.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:22 PM   #53
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a perfect example of why i'm in favor of bringing in Yzerman, if Darryl Sutter was in charge of building Team Canada do you honestly think players like Toews or Doughty would have been on the roster? the Sutters have been talking about culture change in the Flames dressing room for awhile now, but they're still not ready to make the moves that would really bring change
Doughty maybe because of his age, a lot of people wouldn't have put Doughty on Team Canada though. Just go back and look at some of the roster guessing pre-Olympics and you can see that.

Do you really think Toews wouldn't have made it though? Really?
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:34 PM   #54
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The fact that we kept Kronwall and dumped Stralman is suggestive of something...
Not sure why you are comparing those two guys - they are completely different players who fill completely different roles.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:35 PM   #55
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No one has yet to tell me which other prospects have actually been pushing for a job with the big club, or has proved they are ready.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:39 PM   #56
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I realize I'm all over the place with this post as I've come back to it while doing other things...I guess what I'm trying to say is here is just too much caution in Calgary when it comes to young players.

Agreed. I don't buy the truism that younger players have to outplay a veteran to make the team or else you're "handing them" a job. Younger players will probably do worse than a veteran in the short term. However:

A) They could have upside, and turn out to be better than the veteran in a couple years.

B) They're cheap.

But Sutter just won't take short-term pain for long-term gain. He'll always go with what he knows, what already works, and what he's done before.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:39 PM   #57
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I think as well that prospects haven't gotten the best chance in to play.

But, I think when prospects HAVE come up, the way they have been handled has been almost perfect.

I know you all hate the fact that Conroy was getting more time, and maybe better minutes than Backlund, but I think Backlund was taking a step in the right direction and it would have been a mistake to literally shove him into the role he's developing into right now, instead of letting him that that step.

There have been a lot of GOOD prospects that have been completely ruined because their teams didn't let them develop the right way.

EDIT: Maybe Pelech was ready last year. But man, it would have been tough. This year? I think he runs away with the 5/6 spot. Maybe even higher.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:58 PM   #58
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Maybe Pelech is ready. But people have been saying Jimmy Howard was ready for years and look at him now. A little extra time in the minors because of a logjam isn't the worst thing for his development.
I'd rather the Flames steer towards Detroit's path of development than Oilers-esque baptism by fire.

Now, if Pelech gets traded for nothing this year I'll be disappointed like everybody else but that hasn't happened yet.

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Old 05-07-2010, 05:09 PM   #59
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No one has yet to tell me which other prospects have actually been pushing for a job with the big club, or has proved they are ready.
Brett Sutter?
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Old 05-08-2010, 01:03 AM   #60
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Check and mate. I don't care how low in the 1st round we draft, there should be more out of the Flames drafts.

Then as far as development, occasionally you get players who are late bloomers, such as Bourque, or (ugh) Burrows, but for the most part, by age 22, most players who are going to make any sort of an impact in the NHL, are playing in the NHL already.
I would amend the age to 24, however, I absolutely agree with the sentiment: if you aren't playing in the NHL 6 years after being drafted (external circumstances aside like being a European), you aren't going to be an impact player.

With the exception of goalies, there are very few players that languish in the minors for 4 years after junior to become stars in the NHL.

As for the Flames organization not giving players a chance - that's hard to prove one way or the other, however, how many Flames prospects have been cut loose, only to blossom with their next team a la Briere or Peverly?

Has there been any at all? That not bad development...its bad drafting and bad development.

The last top 6 forward Calgary has selected and developed was Theo - that's more than alarming; its inexcusable.
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