Pronman: Flames have #31-ranked farm system in NHL

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Breaking news: Tampa is not the best team in the NHL

they got swept, worst playoff team by your logic

TBF, 16th worst. Also, TBF, IMO he didn't say the Flames were second (or 15th) worst, just that their second place regular season finish has to be tempered by the PO performance. Even I, glass half full guy that I am, can't say the Flames were the second best team overall. In fact, I always hesitate on that based on regular season play and even POs because of uneven schedules, differing PO opponents, etc.

[Bingo]

I don't think there's a whole lot to argue about here.

But it's spin.

Those that want to see the happy side of life point to the graduates and the team being 2nd in the West.

Those that want to see the grumpy side of it point to a lack of picks in recent years as hurting the farm system.

Both are very very correct.

The saving grace to have a list at all is the number of times this group has found decent to great players in the third and later rounds in recent years. It would be a boatload worse if they didn't find Mangiapane, Fox, Phillips, Lindstrom, Ruzicka, Sveningsson, and pretty much the whole 2018 draft.

But would I prefer they hang on to more picks? Absolutely. I was pinning for the 2019 first to remain in Flames control.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

TBF, 16th worst. Also, TBF, IMO he didn't say the Flames were second (or 15th) worst, just that their second place regular season finish has to be tempered by the PO performance. Even I, glass half full guy that I am, can't say the Flames were the second best team overall. In fact, I always hesitate on that based on regular season play and even POs because of uneven schedules, differing PO opponents, etc.

well it can be debated...but they were a top team during the largest sample size last season.

They should be a lock for playoffs...If you have a poor prospect pool you better be a good team. And they are

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think there's a whole lot to argue about here.

But it's spin.

Those that want to see the happy side of life point to the graduates and the team being 2nd in the West.

Those that want to see the grumpy side of it point to a lack of picks in recent years as hurting the farm system.

Both are very very correct.

The saving grace to have a list at all is the number of times this group has found decent to great players in the third and later rounds in recent years. It would be a boatload worse if they didn't find Mangiapane, Fox, Phillips, Lindstrom, Ruzicka, Sveningsson, and pretty much the whole 2018 draft.

But would I prefer they hang on to more picks? Absolutely. I was pinning for the 2019 first to remain in Flames control.

That's not what is happening here, your post is the spin.

Enoch Root is saying the flames are graduating a bunch of players and more so than the average team.

I'm saying they are barely keeping pace with contenders and are just doing business as usual for an NHL roster which is enough to tread water but not make up ground.

The fact that the prospect pool is now substantially depleted is not a surprise, and nor should it be considered a red flag or black mark on the organization. There are few teams that can present a similar list, with respect to both quality and quantity, across the league.

This is just not true, as the four conference finalists I listed have as numerous and as good picks graduating as the Flames do. The Flames are decidedly average around the league in this respect, but some/many on this board are acting as if this is some kind of pipeline. This is just what non-bad teams do as a regular course of business.

Dallas finished 15th in the league last year in points, let's see how their last 6 years have stacked up next to Calgary, just as a random team pulled from thin air:

Dallas:

Smith
Chiasson
Campbell
Nemeth
Klingberg
Jokipakka
Ritchie
Oleksiak
Faksa
Lindell
Shore
Dickinson
Nichuskin
Honka
Hintz
Heiskanen


Let's compare to a Canadian team, say Montreal:

White
Gallagher
Beaulieu
Galchenyuk
Hudon
Lehkonen
Andrighetto
De La Rose
McCarron?
Juulsen?
Mete
Sergachev
Kotkaniemi

I mean, that is absolutely dismal and it's still 11-13 guys. But then, the Habs have also drafted 15(!) times in the first 3 rounds over the last 3 drafts so any bets on what that number might be next year when the Flames will hope to graduate another player?

The only reason people on this board think this is some kind of pipeline was because the preceding 6 years of the timeline the flames graduated:

Backlund
Aulie
Brodie
Bouma
Prust
Pardy
Boyd


Yikes

It's not that I am grumpy, it's that I can count.

[GioforPM]

Not sure what the criteria is any more but by my count, in the last 6 years (why that is the standard I don't know), just by draft picks, the following have graduated to the NHL by playing 25 games at least:

Valimaki
Dube
Tkachuk
Mangiapane
Kylington
Andersson
Bennett
Gilmour
Monahan
Kulak
Jankowski
Gaudreau
Brossoit
Wotherspoon
Granlund
Baertschi
Ferland
Ortio

I refuse to count Erixon.

That's 18, not counting undrafted or unsigned drafts guys who were essentially developed by Calgary like Rittich, Hathaway, Jooris, and maybe Berra (counting him at age 22 but not Ramo after playing KHL).

[Enoch Root]

To Flash:

Except the 4 conference finalists didn't have as many as the Flames. The only one that did (as presented by you) was St. Louis, except your list is all wrong. I was listing only players that graduated during the last 6 years.

St. Louis:

Bishop NO
Bera ? Berra? NO
Lehtera
Allen
Edmundson
Tarasenko NO
Schwartz NO
Carrier
Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn
Thompson (resulted in O'Reilly)
Thomas
Parayko
Blais
Schmaltz
Lindbohm

So corrected, this list doesn't compare to the Flames' list in quality or quantity either.

The only one you presented that compares in quantity is Dallas - and it is really weak with quality (so I didn't bother to look and see if any of them shouldn't be there).

You keep saying the Flames' list is pedestrian, except you haven't been able to demonstrate that at all.

[Enoch Root]

also, Hamilton wouldn't count for Boston (haven't looked at the rest of their list)

[Jiri Hrdina]

My take on all this
- The Flames have, for a couple of decades, been one of the weaker franchises when it comes to the overall asset base. This was a result of poor drafting (the Chucko/Pelech years), trading of picks, and just bad trades overall. This includes getting almost nothing out of the last core group. If you look at the net returns of Iginla, Regehr, Kipper and Bouwmeester - they didn't get anything out of what was once their core group. So that's always going to make things tough
- Flash's points about draft picks are valid. This team was trying to kick open their window of contention and pull it forward. And to some extent I understand that. My hypothesis is that the organization knows that Johnny isn't going to re-sign and as such they view every year wasted with him as a wasted opportunity. They are trying to maximize their chances with him part of the team.
- You can debate whether or not deals such as the Hamonic one were the right long-term moves, but that's the strategy they took. So for me it is less about questioning that strategy but moreso evaluating how they have executed that strategy
- The team has made some real strides in drafting that is helping to compensate for the lack of picks. But at some point you pay the price for that approach - and we are probably going to see that over the next few years

Again for me this isn't so much a recent thing but rather an organization that dwindled it's asset base down to that of an expansion franchise - and as such is constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul.

But when it comes to this article, it would APPEAR (I say that because I haven't read it) to be not a great piece of work based on the exclusion of several prospects that i think one can fairly say haven't graduated.

But if this piece was written next summer - I would assume that the Flames would certainly be near the bottom of the list, if not at the very bottom.

[Strange Brew]

Doesn’t the author use the same basis for graduated players across all teams, or is he just picking on the Flames?

[Bingo]

Pronman is out with the Oilers ranked at #9 today.

Prospect #6 is Yamamoto with 26 NHL games played.

He graduated Dillon Dube off the Calgary list with 25 games played.
He graduated Juuso Valimaki off the Calgary list with 24 games played.

Caleb Jones is still a prospect with 17 games played
Ethan Bear is still a prospect with 18 games played

So a timeline can be established

17 prospect
18 prospect
24 graduated
25 graduated
26 prospect

[Weitz]

He mentions what eligibility requirements he is using for his lists - you know that right?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Weitz

He mentions what eligibility requirements he is using for his lists - you know that right?

Do you think Bouchard cracks the roster this year? I can't really see who would be standing in his way.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Do you think Bouchard cracks the roster this year? I can't really see who would be standing in his way.

Maybe. He has a unique contract that can slide one more year while playing in the AHL IIRC. So they may play him there if he doesn't blow the socks off (apologies to Muta) in training camp.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Pronman is out with the Oilers ranked at #9 today.

Prospect #6 is Yamamoto with 26 NHL games played.

He graduated Dillon Dube off the Calgary list with 25 games played.
He graduated Juuso Valimaki off the Calgary list with 24 games played.

Caleb Jones is still a prospect with 17 games played
Ethan Bear is still a prospect with 18 games played

So a timeline can be established

17 prospect
18 prospect
24 graduated
25 graduated
26 prospect

As long as Dubé outplays Yamamoto, it doesn't matter where they end up on a random list.

I would consider it a compliment to Dubé that he is thought of as graduated and Yamamoto is not

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Weitz

He mentions what eligibility requirements he is using for his lists - you know that right?

What are they?

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Maybe. He has a unique contract that can slide one more year while playing in the AHL IIRC. So they may play him there if he doesn't blow the socks off (apologies to Muta) in training camp.

It's not unique at all, it happens often due to the late draft birthdate.

As for making the team, it's a real possibility. The Oilers have maybe the worst defence league wide and they've traditionally cared more about depth than what's good for the player. Not a huge fan of him as a prospect regardless, some of his huge draft numbers are due to that late birthday. He was 18 for the majority of the season. Unlike Adam Boqvist who didn't turn 18 until a month after the draft.

[BeltlineFan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What are they?

A skater no longer qualifies as an NHL prospect if he has played 25 games in the NHL in any campaign, regular season and playoffs combined, or 50 games total; or reaches age 27 by Sept. 15

Just chance that Dube played exactly 25 games all in one season.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Weitz

He mentions what eligibility requirements he is using for his lists - you know that right?

No I saw them ...

A skater no longer qualifies as an NHL prospect if he has played 25 games in the NHL in any campaign, regular season and playoffs combined, or 50 games total; or reaches age 27 by Sept. 15.

And I get it ... but that's a tough line in the discussion between those three players.

Otherwise ... that was pretty pissy dude. Loosen up.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Pronman is out with the Oilers ranked at #9 today.

Prospect #6 is Yamamoto with 26 NHL games played.

He graduated Dillon Dube off the Calgary list with 25 games played.
He graduated Juuso Valimaki off the Calgary list with 24 games played.

Caleb Jones is still a prospect with 17 games played
Ethan Bear is still a prospect with 18 games played

So a timeline can be established

17 prospect
18 prospect
24 graduated
25 graduated
26 prospect

You have to look at it from the point of view that Dube, to Flames, probably is or should be graduated. Same goes for Valimaki.

The three Oilers are certainly not at that level based on last season. You can see the logic he's using as games played isn't necessarily an indicator of whether a team has graduated a prospect yet or not.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by BeltlineFan

Just chance that Dube played exactly 25 games all in one season.

And Valimaki goes over based on the single playoff game adding to the 24 regular season games.