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Old 04-24-2019, 12:03 PM   #221
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The call was bad...seems like a honest mistake though. #### happens. Vegas needs to look themselves in the mirror. They tied the NHL record for allowing goals on a major. Hold them to two goals and you are golden.

Worst PK of all time isn't all on the refs
This is the line the officials walk by playing with fire. If you make awful calls as often as they do, eventually one will blow up in your face. This league's officiating is broken. The individuals, as well as the system they operate in.

They really need to get it right, as its turning (rightfully) a lot of people off the game. For myself, that was a ton of fun to watch. But I would be beside myself if that was the Flames and I'd have a tough time continuing to cough up money to support the NHL.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:15 PM   #222
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Personally, I am glad Vegas lost because I am flying in tomorrow morning and last year at this time, every idiot tourist and local was wearing a Knights jersey, not even knowing what sport they played. Not to mention, no more circus acts before games is a definite plus.

Urgh.. still salty...
I had a completely different experience. I was in Vegas when they were playing the Sharks. I loved the atmosphere. I even took in a game at Toshiba Plaza just outside of the arena. I found it to be really fun!
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:26 PM   #223
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I wonder how the flames would be if they had half the passion and heart that the Sharks showed last night. That was an incredible display.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:30 PM   #224
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I wonder how the flames would be if they had half the passion and heart that the Sharks showed last night. That was an incredible display.
Or this series as a whole. I won't lie, I thought the same thing.

"I wish my team had that heart."
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:03 PM   #225
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The call was bad...seems like a honest mistake though. #### happens. Vegas needs to look themselves in the mirror. They tied the NHL record for allowing goals on a major. Hold them to two goals and you are golden.

Worst PK of all time isn't all on the refs
Interesting take, especially after the views that were expressed during Flames/Avs games 3 and 4.

Can't give up 4, but that brutal call turned a game that was in cruise control to sheer panic. Worst case scenario happened, best case scenario you give up only 1 on the road, either way its all of a sudden a game based on nothing.

If that happened to the Flames 99% of this board would be all over the refs.

One of the worst calls i've seen in a long long time.
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:35 PM   #226
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If you really get literal with rule 609 (b) -- "A major plus a game misconduct penalty shall be assessed to any player who injures an opponent as a result of cross checking" -- then the call on the ice is justified.

EDIT - Mistakenly referenced USA Hockey rulebook by mistake. IMHO, NHL rule is similar and open to similar literal interpretation.

The issue I have with the call is that the rule book is never interpreted so literally during the season and in the playoffs, the rule book is thrown right out.

I'd be okay if the book was called more closely instead of the prison rules that they go by, but that's not the standard that has been set.

Every single playoff game is one blatant penalty after another that goes uncalled. For every penalty called, there's 8-10 obvious ones that aren't called and in the end, the referees typically just want to make sure both teams get the same number of calls so that they don't impact the outcome of the game (which in itself impacts the outcome of the game).

The most interesting thing for me is that I don't think there's any way they call the rule book in this situation if it's a close game. In a 3-2 game, they might call a 2 minute penalty. If it was tied, I don't think they call a penalty at all. They called the 5+ because it was 3-0 with 10:00 left and no one thought a come back was possible. This is what "game management" results in.

Last edited by mikeecho; 04-24-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:39 PM   #227
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If you really get literal with rule 609 (b) -- "A major plus a game misconduct penalty shall be assessed to any player who injures an opponent as a result of cross checking" -- then the call on the ice is justified.
That isn’t the rule in the NHL rulebook. There is no rule 609 in the nhl.

Under “59: Crosschecking”
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59.3 Major Penalty - A major penalty, at the discretion of the Referee
based on the severity of the contact, shall be imposed on a player
who “cross checks” an opponent (see 59.5).
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:43 PM   #228
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That isn’t the rule in the NHL rulebook. There is no rule 609 in the nhl.

Under “59: Crosschecking”
My bad. Was flipping between the NHL and Hockey USA rule books.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:03 PM   #229
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Or this series as a whole. I won't lie, I thought the same thing.

"I wish my team had that heart."
People need to stop thinking this team lacks heart. They have a lot of heart and a lot of care............they just failed or have yet to learn how to turn their "heart" into elevated play versus turning it into a ball of nerves and degraded play. The Flames literally crumbled under the pressure this post season, that doesn't happen if you don't have "heart".
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:07 PM   #230
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When you are faced with adversity and fold rather than persevere? Yeah that's a lack of heart.

If what you saw in say, game 5, was what you consider heart? I don't know what to tell you.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:08 PM   #231
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Interesting take, especially after the views that were expressed during Flames/Avs games 3 and 4.

Can't give up 4, but that brutal call turned a game that was in cruise control to sheer panic. Worst case scenario happened, best case scenario you give up only 1 on the road, either way its all of a sudden a game based on nothing.

If that happened to the Flames 99% of this board would be all over the refs.

One of the worst calls i've seen in a long long time.
There was a high cross check and there was a guy on the ice bleeding all over the place...in real time I can see why it was called. On replay? yeah its not the right call.

Flames PK allowed 1 goal for every 8 mins short handed this season. Allowing 4 in 5 mins is just crazy.

We would be all over the refs yes...but also the team if it happened to us.

And who said the Flames deserved games 3 and 4? Refs sucked and were biased but the Flames still blew it was the general consensus.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:20 PM   #232
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When you are faced with adversity and fold rather than persevere? Yeah that's a lack of heart.

If what you saw in say, game 5, was what you consider heart? I don't know what to tell you.
What I saw all series and game 5 was nervous play, choking. That's something very different than a lack of heart.

Two very different things. I didn't see a team that wanted to be elsewhere (this would be a lack of heart), I saw a team that wanted to succeed so badly they froze (this is choking). What we saw is a problem that certainly needs to be address, but not sure how anyone can say the problem was the Flames give a #### meter.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:23 PM   #233
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After watching that unfold last night, I feel like Vegas should have some sort of legal option to pursue. They were literally robbed of none less than $30M because the refs sh@t the bed. There was simply no excuse for what happened.
I have no dog in this fight and I could barely sleep last night after that horrific call. The game was signed, sealed and deliverd before the refs went postal.

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Old 04-24-2019, 03:25 PM   #234
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What I saw all series and game 5 was nervous play, choking. That's something very different than a lack of heart.

Two very different things. I didn't see a team that wanted to be elsewhere (this would be a lack of heart), I saw a team that wanted to succeed so badly they froze (this is choking). What we saw is a problem that certainly needs to be address, but not sure how anyone can say the problem was the Flames give a #### meter.
Agree to disagree I suppose.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:26 PM   #235
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Agree to disagree I suppose.
That's fair, but you actually thought the Flames were disinterested in the playoffs?
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:27 PM   #236
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The question shouldn't be how can the refs make such a call. The question should be how can Vegas let in 4 goals in one power play? Well as least now they become the answer to a Trivia question.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:30 PM   #237
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That's fair, but you actually thought the Flames were disinterested in the playoffs?
I already told you what I saw. I saw a team that when faced with adversity folded. They didn't have the extra gear, they didn't fight back. They went out meekly. Disinterested? No. Unable to muster anything more than what they had given to that point? Yes.

When comparing the Flames to the Sharks, this spring, I saw one team that openly said they were going to do something and then battled all sorts of adversity to accomplish that goal. I saw our guys give interviews with their heads down, saying how they believed in this room and the team and then giving us an identical effort the next game.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:34 PM   #238
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I already told you what I saw. I saw a team that when faced with adversity folded. They didn't have the extra gear, they didn't fight back. They went out meekly. Disinterested? No. Unable to muster anything more than what they had given to that point? Yes.

When comparing the Flames to the Sharks, this spring, I saw one team that openly said they were going to do something and then battled all sorts of adversity to accomplish that goal. I saw our guys give interviews with their heads down, saying how they believed in this room and the team and then giving us an identical effort the next game.
I agree. So what makes you think it was a lack of heart that created the inability to muster anything else? I think you've observed the same thing we all did, but you've drawn a conclusion that the issue is heart, versus ability or something else. You haven't articulated why you think that heart is root cause for the things you mentioned you saw.

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Old 04-24-2019, 03:35 PM   #239
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After watching that unfold last night, I feel like Vegas should have some sort of legal option to pursue. They were literally robbed of none less than $30M because the refs sh@t the bed. There was simply no excuse for what happened.
I have no dog in this fight and I could barely sleep last night after that horrific call. The game was signed, sealed and deliverd before the refs went postal.
The Vegas PK allowed 4 goals on that powerplay... is that the ref's fault too?
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:37 PM   #240
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I agree. So what makes you think it was a lack of heart that created the ability to muster anything else? I think you've observed the same thing we all did, but you've drawn a conclusion that the issue is heart, versus ability or something else. You haven't articulated why you think that heart is root cause for the things you mentioned you saw.
I think you're just looking for an argument, and I'm not biting.
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