100% pro Filoni. Its no secret that the Star Wars fan bubble is shrinking rapidly right now and merchandising sales are at all time lows. Neither of those problems are going to get any better with Kathleen Kennedy at the helm, in fact, I would argue they are going to get a lot worse in the next year or 2.
Nah. The Mandalorian is one of the most popular shows in the world, Baby Yodas are flying off the shelves, the recent films have grossed over $5 billion at the box office, and the fans continue to lap up anything SW related, no matter what the format. All of these TV shows currently in the works and the upcoming Taika Waititi film will likely be very successful. The Star Wars brand is doing just fine.
You can hate Kennedy all you want, but she and her team successfully resuscitated a franchise that was essentially dead and buried just a few years ago.
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Nah. The Mandalorian is one of the most popular shows in the world, Baby Yodas are flying off the shelves, the recent films have grossed over $5 billion at the box office, and the fans continue to lap up anything SW related, no matter what the format. All of these TV shows currently in the works and the upcoming Taika Waititi film will likely be very successful. The Star Wars brand is doing just fine.
You can hate Kennedy all you want, but she and her team successfully resuscitated a franchise that was essentially dead and buried just a few years ago.
This is an odd take...
The main profit stream, toys, is pretty much dead. The same is true for the comics and novels.
Grossing 5 billion is great, but not so great when you have to pay $4 billion up front for rights. The main franchise movies had dramatically decreasing profits and the last side movie, Solo, lost a huge amount of money.
The Mandalorian has been fantastic, but that's the one thing outside of Kennedy's control. There are many reports of conflict between Kennedy and Favreau, with Kennedy insisting on tying the series to the mainstream product and Favreau doing everything he can to keep her far far away. Basically, the only positive right now for Star Wars is the only thing that Kennedy is not involved in.
If she'd successfully resuscitated the franchise they wouldn't be slamming the breaks on it.
Star Wars is pretty much as close as any property in existence to being the Golden Goose.
All you have to do is STFU, sit back and let it squirt out Golden Eggs.
Kennedy did not do that. It still went ahead and made a bunch of money, but I think a lot of that is in spite of her efforts as opposed to being because of them.
You are absolutely correct, if things were going swimmingly they'd be trying to drown you in content not smashing the 'pause' button.
If I've said this once I've said it a million times....just because something makes a lot of money does not mean it was necessarily 'Good.'
For all the talk from Executives and Producers and Directors about cherishing and respecting Star Wars and what it means to people they really wiped their ass with it via this trilogy.
Mistakes were made. Bad ones. And worse, really obvious ones.
I think they've bungled this badly because it was their opportunity to use the past material and characters to usher in a new generation to the Universe they want to create and they did it very, very badly.
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I didn't want him back. I mean they did the whole comeback of Boba Fett in the legends EU and it lead to some really cringe worthy masterbatory writings by Karen Traviss that really dragged down the Legacy of the Force books. We get it Karen you love Boba Fett.
Yeah I would be okay with no Boba Fett at all in The Mandalorian. I think season 1 proved it's entirely unnecessary to lean on the OT characters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
I know I'm probably on my own here, but I still think that was one of the worst light sabre battles in Star Wars. It's an over-choreographed dance that happens to have laser swords as props. At that point in the movie I don't care about Darth Maul at all. He's generic middle management bad guy with "look how bad-ass I am" face paint.
I'm one of those people who just want lightsaber duels to be cool, and I think that fight holds up well.
I know I'm probably on my own here, but I still think that was one of the worst light sabre battles in Star Wars. It's an over-choreographed dance that happens to have laser swords as props. At that point in the movie I don't care about Darth Maul at all. He's generic middle management bad guy with "look how bad-ass I am" face paint.
Darth Maul has a message for you pal.
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Yeah I would be okay with no Boba Fett at all in The Mandalorian. I think season 1 proved it's entirely unnecessary to lean on the OT characters.
People are fans of being a fan of Star Wars at this point more so than being fans of the movies. There hasn't been a great Star Wars movie in 40 years.
They'll continue to theme park things.
People are fans of being a fan of Star Wars at this point more so than being fans of the movies. There hasn't been a great Star Wars movie in 40 years.
They'll continue to theme park things.
Heres the thing, because I see where you're going with that.
There are a lot of elements of Star Wars that I really, really like. I've read a lot of the older expanded Universe books and while they're not winning any prizes for literature or anything they are largely enjoyable.
Why?
Because its characters you actually care about in an interesting Universe and basically just having continued adventures. Its easy. There isnt much more to it than that and as long as you more or less stick to that without jumping too many sharks people arent really asking for a whole hell of a lot more.
Does anyone care about the Characters from the current trilogy? I'd wager no. Prequels? Obi-Wan. Darth Maul...a little. Maybe the Emperor?
The current crop of characters sucked. You didnt care about them at all.
The Mandalorian? Simple stories with characters you like and care about. No Death Stars required.
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To me a lot of the prequel series legends books that came out were just exceptionally well done and really vested you in the characters.
The ROTS trilogy of Labyrinth of evil, revenge of the Sith and Darth Vader rise of the Dark Lord is a great read and really bring a lot to the main characters.
Even the Darth Maul books, and the Darth Plageius books to me are must reads.
When I went back through a lot of the original legends books like the Thrawn trilogy for example they aged badly. The future stuff Legacy and Fate of the Jedi had these amazing moments in them, but Fates kind of petered out and became silly when it tried to link itself to the Clone Wars series.
Unfortunately the now Canon EU books just don't match up to the quality and story telling of the Legends books.
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Kathleen Kennedy didn't ruin the franchise, Star Wars fanbase did after they whined there way to a mediocre fan service stuffed conclusion after not letting The Last Jedi take the franchise where it wanted to go, and being unable to let go of the Original Trilogy.
To paraphrase Vince McMahon....
"Star Wars fans screwed Star Wars fans" (in a gravely, and very raspy voice)
Kathleen Kennedy didn't ruin the franchise, Star Wars fanbase did after they whined there way to a mediocre fan service stuffed conclusion after not letting The Last Jedi take the franchise where it wanted to go, and being unable to let go of the Original Trilogy.
To paraphrase Vince McMahon....
"Star Wars fans screwed Star Wars fans" (in a gravely, and very raspy voice)
I respectfully disagree. The Last Jedi was a fundamentally poor movie and a disastrous second movie.
The Force Awakens played it safe, but planted the seeds for the second movie... which was likely also intended to play it safe, but grow the seeds for the third movie. All those seeds were tossed aside in the name of trying to make an edgy Star Wars movie.
The injection of not-so subtle politics and unlikeable characters aside, it totally derailed the flow. If Kylo is the primary antagonist, where do you go? It kills the redemption arc. If the First Order is decimated and the Resistance is down to what the Falcon can hold, where do you go?
No Snoke, no Luke, Carrie Fisher dying between movies, and The Last Jedi seemingly acting as a standalone ending meant a third movie was going to be a challenge. Now add to it that a section of the fanbase felt alienated and there was a risk they would stay at home for the third film and further damage box office (like Solo).
JJ Abrams had to re-plant new seeds and resolve them all in the same film, and what we got what a hack job. The fanservice in the Rise of Skywalker wasn't the problem (it wasn't great either), but the plot was the problem.
Because Disney/Kennedy were determined to make sure everyone loved the new characters (especially Rey), this meant the tail wagged the dog plot wise. The shock moment (if you must resurrect Palpatine) should have been that not only was Rey his grandchild created by randomly impregnating some farm girl on Jakku... but that he had done it once before... and he was also the father of Anakin (and also Luke's grandfather), making the whole saga one f-ed up family fight. The final scene should have had Anakin, Luke AND Rey fighting Palpatine and Anakin being the one to actually kill Palpatine, and maybe fully dying and losing his abaility to be a ghost or something. This way, Rey is both a Palpatine AND a Skywalker (so you get that cringey moment, but in a way that adds to the mythos, and keeps Anakin as the chosen one).
TFA was a fairly solid movie, but the problem was it was almost a note for remake/reboot of a New Hope. The new characters really weren't epic characters, Poe to me was pretty flat. Having Kyle as a petulant spastic villain didn't do much good, but he was ok. They created some really interesting echos, who was Snoke? Why had Ben fallen? Who was Rey lined to? It created a lot of buzz. The ot characters really outshined and were more likeable then the ST characters. Killing Solo was exceptionally well done, especially with the lighting effects. The duel between Kylo and Rey was good, though the fact that she was so naturally powerful in fight with no training created a lot of questions, They did a nice job of incoporating Palpatines fight mannerisms into the fight, and also Anakins.
The Last Jedi - An absolute mess, Rian turned out to be a terrible choice. Took a lot of the things in the first movie and chucked them away. The awkward and terrible Rose and Finn storyline. Playing Hux for laughs. Killing Snoke like a Red shirted yeoman. The poorly done cave scene for Rey. In the end the movie only served to confuse everyone not create intriguing questions. Poe was an idiot, this was supposed to be his growing and maturing movie, but in the end it didn't really do that. This movie was a mess, and in the end wasn't all that entertaining, it didn't have a lot of energy to draw you in.
ROS - I think that JJ went aw frack Rian wrecked any storyline, now what do I do. I know fan service. Brings back Palpatine who instead of being cagey and underhanded comes across as the movie of the week monster. We see the nights of ren get butchered in 2 seconds. Rose is given the Jar Jar. Hux's character was completely wasted in two seconds. Worst evil super weapon design ever. Really bizarre wrap up of Ren as a character and a redemption arc that really didn't elicit any emotions, and a werider make out session. Palpatine is defeated by crossed swords. Bring in Kerri Russell as a major announcement, and don't use her. Lando creeping up on his potential daughter. Too much stuff packed into the movie. A nice visual ending.
As much as Kathleen Kennedy didn't help with her own rewrites and insistent storyline beats. The two people that really trashed the ST were Rian, with his terrible movie and nonsensical BS instincts and storylines. And then JJ for panicking and trying to fix it with fan service galore.
Could the Trilogy have been salvaged after the 2nd movie, possibly, I think the smart move would have been to deathly hallows it and make the ROS a two parter, and done things to establish the return of Palpatine and really build up what he was doing. I also believe strongly that Kathleens insistant on firing Hayden and reducing Anakin to an after throught and her and JJ crapping all over the ending of the OT was a huge mistake. You absolutely have to have Anakin in the last scene against Palpatine it would have made a ton of sense. I think that things like the Sith device for finding Palpatine could have been done way better.
I still remember even on this board, that I liked TFA, and stated that, but TLJ killed my enthusiasm for the trilogy and though I went to see ROS I came out of the theatre, not even mad about it, but wondering if it was the end of Star Wars as a major movie franchise. There were exceptional Star Wars franchises out there in animated world. But this trilogy killed the movies for me because as much as we talk about PT and there were some real doozies in there, there was a comprehensive storyline and the characters were developed really well. From Padme to Anakin to Kenobi to Palpatine and even Yoda, at least these characters made some sense and were doing something that made sense.
What killed ST was the incomprehensible storylines that changed gears with the sound of a breaking transmissions and then an attempt to fix it and making it somehow worse.
The storyline in the ST was in the end terrible.
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Lol. And here we go again, round and round in circles with the same arguments that have been happening since TLJ came out. I'm not gonna wade into this minefield again. But I'll just say that I personally enjoyed the new films and I'll leave it at that. I certainly don't begrudge anyone who didn't like them though. Art and entertainment are completely subjective, and there is no right or wrong in this debate.
Anyway...whatever comes next for the franchise, whether it's in movie or TV form, hopefully it'll unite the fan base again and people will finally move on from the Kathleen Kennedy/Rian Johnson arguments.
Does anyone actually like Rey, Finn, or Poe as the main characters in the sequel trilogy? I would love to hear why if so. So bland and uninteresting with poorly executed plot lines.
I liked some aspects of Rey, she was scrappy and had a great war cry. But her character really felt under developed, I think she did a good job in terms of acting, and the physicality, but she felt hollow.
Finn in the end was really a nothing character in the end, they could have done some amazing things as a former Stormtrooper turned rebel, but in the end his main role was to yell wooo and say exciting things loudly while shooting stuff.
Poe was good in the first movie, unlikeable in the second movie and a soundly secondary character in the third movie, I honestly can't remember much of him in the third movie.
The best actor of the lot was Adam Driver, who had some great moments acting wise.
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Was reading an article about Filoni and George Lucas. It’s still amazing that despised how panned the prequels were, they became such great source of lore and material for the SW universe. I wonder if just using better special effects, and maybe obfuscating the trade war stuff would have made the difference for the prequels.
The problem with the prequels wasn't in the story line, the story line was really good for me. The problem had to do with dialogue that often came out as forced and awkward. Some real obvious bad decisions, animal farts, Nooooooooo, I hate sand etc.
I mean George even realized his mistake with Jar Jar and made him essential to the downfall of the republic and then basically put him away in the third movie.
The other problem was time, I'm convinced that they could have made revenge of the Sith a two movie arc and really dove hard into the reasons why Anakin fell and how Palpatine pulled him to the dark side.
The other thing for me is that Phantom Menace had the wrong tone. Anakin was a slave, make him a slave, don't make it seem like slavery wasn't that bad.
I rewrote the beats of the Phantom menace a lot time ago in my head. Don't read it if you don't want to.
Spoiler!
The beginning of the Phantom menace stays mostly the same, except don't make the Nemoidians racist caricatures of WW 2 anti-Japanese propaganda.
- Obi-Wan and Kenobi escape and make their way to Naboo
- There they meet Jar Jar Binks a banished Gungan who was banned for cowardice on the battlefield. He gets saved by Quigon and swears a life debt. Meanwhile the droid army takes over the planet and seizes the Queen. The Jedi rescue her and flee.
- They land on Tatooine and go to the junk shop to buy a hyper drive. There they meet a 14 year old slave named Anakin Skywalker, Qui gon senses the force in the boy. But not the power. They can't make a deal with Watto and leave. Darth Maul arrives on Tatooine.
the next day Ben and Qui gon go back to the junk shop to try to negotiate they walk in as Watto is beating on Skywalker for some transgression, they subdue Watto. They meet Anakin's mother and she encourages Anakin to flee after he surmises that Quigon and Obi are Jedi.
They flee, but Anakin realizes that his mother in in danger for encouraging him to flee. They return to the shop to question Watto, who brags about selling her to the mines for making trouble. Anakin flys into a rage and attacks Watto, but the Jedi intervene. They goto the mine where she is has been sold by Watto to be worked to death. Anakin begs the Jedi to help, the Jedi state that they have a bigger mission and can't reveal themselves or get involved. Anakin leaves to rescue his mother. He enters the mine just in time to see her being punished by a overseer.
Anakin goes into a rage and channels the force for the first time and basically chokes the overseer to death. A riot ensues and Anakin tries to flee the slaves. Obi and Qui gon show up and Qui gon realizes that Anakin is extremely powerful and a vergence in the force, but if he leaves him untrained he will become a very real threat. The Jedi get Anakin out of there. On the way back to the ship Maul attacks, and things happen in a similar way except Anakin rescues Qui gon instinctively and unleashes a powerful force push on Maul sending him off a cliff or something.
The Jedi, Padme and Anakin and Jar Jar head to Coruscant. Maul reports to Sidious tells him about the attack by Anakin who is clearly not a Jedi. Sidious is intrigued.
We go to Coruscant, a lot of things happen the same, we see Palpatine's machinations. Padme decides to return home to save her people.
Meanwhile Anakin goes in front of the council and is tested. Yoda can see his strength in the force, but also his rage, the council agrees that he can't be trained, but he has to be detained for now because he's a very real threat. Qui Gon breaks Anakin out and they return to Naboo.
The battle happens, Anakin who has been a pod racer and learned how to fly takes a ship and show that he's the best pilot anyone has ever seen, he shows heroism and finds a way to intentionally destroy the droid control ship.
Meanwhile on the battlefield Jar Jar redeems himself by showing a great deal of courage and determiniation.
The duel between the Jedi and Maul is the same.
At the end the battle is done, Palpatine says the same thing about watching Anakin's career with great interest but it now seems more sinister.
Near the end Obi-Wan tells the council that he is going to train Anakin, he convinces him that Anakin has great power and great heroism and compassion, and left to his own devices could become a great threat. Yoda discloses about the chosen one prophesy.
At the end we get a montage, a young Anakin at the Jedi temple sparring with Kenobi. Padme returning to Theed to thunderous applause. The Jedi council talking about the darkening force. A shot of Palpatine in his office sitting at his desk as the sun goes down behind him and he becomes immersed in shadows.
Why I wanted to see it like this or something similar.
It makes Sidious' seduction of Anakin seem more planned.
It shows Anakin's somewhat unbalanced nature
It plants the seeds of Anakin's distrust in the Jedi
Jar Jar isn't a doofus.
By making Anakin older and more emotional the reason why the council not wanting to train him because he's older makes more sense. It removes the cute element and adds more weight to Anakins fall. In retrospect we could even let Anakin rescue his badly beaten mother and still kill the overseer, then we can have the Tusken slaughter in the next movie.
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Does anyone actually like Rey, Finn, or Poe as the main characters in the sequel trilogy? I would love to hear why if so. So bland and uninteresting with poorly executed plot lines.
I liked Rey because she had at least a modicum of her character fleshed out. But her ending was silly. Finn and Poe were useless and boring.
I liked Rey because she had at least a modicum of her character fleshed out. But her ending was silly. Finn and Poe were useless and boring.
I didnt like any of them. They were all thin and hollow and if any of them died they could be easily replaced.
There were too many characters than were needed so you dont care because you're following nearly a dozen different story lines and you wish you were following some character growth and development arcs, but that just never happened outside of some hammy BS.
Wasted potential. A lot of it. Rey could have been interesting, but she wasnt. There was lots you could have done with Finn and Poe but some bi-racial buddy-cop comedy routines was about the extent of it.
Despite Adam Driver's best efforts (and they were good) Ren never progressed past angsty, uncertain child and there was so, so much there.
So yeah, I dont think anyone is going to be pining for cameos from any of these clowns in upcoming features and all of the old guard are dead and gone.
Nobody did anything noteworthy. In essence the Star Wars Galaxy is no better or worse off for any of them having ever existed.
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Out of Poe, Finn, and Rey, Rey is my least favorite. Poe got some character development in Star Wars Resistance. Not much, but some. Finn is a bit intriguing because of his background and force potential. But his character was handled terrible.
Rey isn't as much of a Mary Sue anymore because of Paplatine her heritage. But she still doesn't have much personality to offer. Not when you compare her to a character like Ahsoka. Part of the problem with the sequel trilogy is that we also knew Rey wouldn't fall to the dark side, rather, she would defeat it. There was never any suspense there.
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