CBE Results in Decline

[Shazam]

My oldest went to a charter school, class size was never an issue.

My youngest's classes have never been that large. Max 32. Which was the size they were when I went through the CBE. I dunno is that good or bad.

I do know that they're trying cohorting again in high school, since the whole "mix all the kids together!" concept seems to have failed.

In South Korea, they like large class sizes because it increases the chances of students finding friends in their classes.

Alberta is considered to have the most rigorous primary school system in Canada.

UBC for example gives Alberta applicants a 2% increase in their grades.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Do people think that PD days are days off for the teacher?

Professional Development. Depending on how strict administration is for each school, it's so the government can indoctrinate the teachers, so that they can later indoctrinate your kids. They have to be in the school or at a seminar, not skiing.

It inconvenienced me! Therefore I am enraged!

The PD days always kind of bugged me that they we during the school year. What other industry does their professional development during the busy time? Do it in the off-season, you have a big one.

Where I live, the teachers now get a lot of these STIP days, which is every Thursday afternoon. It was sold as prep time. However, in my school, many of the teachers have taken part-time jobs in the day camps caring for the kids during these STIP days. This includes both of my kids' teachers. I tell my kids to bring their classwork and ask their teachers to review it with them versus just playing Uno or whatever they normally do in those camps.

My mom was a teacher and she complains about the decline of the profession. It used to be a profession with a lot of discretion, and expectation of the teacher. Now they are hourly workers who punch a clock and follow a script.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't think that's true at all. BC teachers won a court case nearly a decade ago restoring their old class size/composition rules that they had bargained for. Since then, I haven't really heard any teachers complaining about class sizes like they did before the ruling. And it hasn't been a notable issue in bargaining since then either.

What do they complain about now, then? There is no way on God's green earth it comes to negotiation time and they just say, "nah, we good." The union's job is to get them something better every single time. They are kind of hitting the limit (one would think) on time off, their salaries are strong and they have the best benefits a large group can have. They need to have something to work teachers into a snit about for leverage against the taxpayers.

If they're saying class sizes are fine, my guess is they're going to focus on squeezing more on the salary end.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well, we both know it's union propaganda.

They can't exactly complain about salary, vacation time or benefits. Those are all first rate, particularly in this economy.

What's that leave for the union to rile teachers and their spouses up about? Class sizes. It's their go-to and it works every time. Worked in the late 80s, worked through the 90s, worked in the 2000s, worked in the 2010s and of course it'll work in the 2020s.

I know for a fact anybody between 16 and 60 knows teachers have always complained about class sizes. There isn't a teacher working today who didn't know what they were signing up for, but they all get amnesia as soon as they start teaching and think they're being overworked and underappreciated with these HUGE class sizes nobody ever told them to expect lol.

Rinse and repeat for the next 50 years, I guess.

Is it propaganda if the problem actually exists and nothing gets done about it?

Even if a teacher goes into the profession knowing it’s an issue why should that prohibit them from trying to fix it?

It’s like saying that because someone who knew getting a job at McDonald’s or Amazon wasn’t going to be sunshine and rainbows that they shouldn’t want or advocate for it to be better if it can be.

The other issue I see with what you’re saying is that the class size issue isn’t prevalent in all areas or districts, but that doesn’t mean a teacher who wants to work at a school with smaller class sizes will have a job available to them there.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm curious about the over-flowing classrooms. I just feel like we've had this discussion and issue for years (going back to when I was a kid in the CBE actually). Is there any where that has compiled the data to show how class sizes have changed through the years?

See, and my understanding is that Lord Beaverbrook, one of the biggest High Schools around, is essentially vacant after just being renovated.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Is it propaganda if the problem actually exists and nothing gets done about it?

Even if a teacher goes into the profession knowing it’s an issue why should that prohibit them from trying to fix it?

It’s like saying that because someone who knew getting a job at McDonald’s or Amazon wasn’t going to be sunshine and rainbows that they shouldn’t want or advocate for it to be better if it can be.

The other issue I see with what you’re saying is that the class size issue isn’t prevalent in all areas or districts, but that doesn’t mean a teacher who wants to work at a school with smaller class sizes will have a job available to them there.

My contention is class sizes are not a problem. I was in a class with 35 at one point in my schooling, but 30 - 32 was a regular thing. The sizes are fine. That's the job. You get a class of 30ish kids.

[Locke]

Ah yes! But if they make classes smaller, then they'd need more classrooms, for more classrooms you need more teachers, more teachers means more Union Dues....

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Locke

See, and my understanding is that Lord Beaverbrook, one of the biggest High Schools around, is essentially vacant after just being renovated.

It's definitely not anywhere close to fully utilized.

Demographics man. Service area is full of empty nesters, people are healthier and live longer, can maintain SFH without difficulty.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Sliver

My contention is class sizes are not a problem. I was in a class with 35 at one point in my schooling, but 30 - 32 was a regular thing. The sizes are fine. That's the job. You get a class of 30ish kids.

Just because class sizes were the same back then, doesn't mean it's OK... It might just mean that class sizes are perpetually crap.

I also don't think the average makeup of a class of 32 kids in 1994 is the same as a class of 32 today, so even if the class size is consistently crappy, it still might not be an apples-to-apples comparison.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Do people think that PD days are days off for the teacher?

Professional Development. Depending on how strict administration is for each school, it's so the government can indoctrinate the teachers, so that they can later indoctrinate your kids. They have to be in the school or at a seminar, not skiing.

It inconvenienced me! Therefore I am enraged!

Reasons the marks are dropping.

Covid interruption.
Overflowing classrooms.
Poor curriculum.
No time for one-on-one instruction.
Less time for parents/tutors to help as the population gets poorer.
Mixed 10/20/40 classes, with little support.
New grading procedures.
Admin catering to parents.
Weak parenting that blames the teachers for poor results.
Overall air of hostility.
The governments "war on teachers".

Whatever they are they’re definitely harder on parents.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by you&me

Just because class sizes were the same back then, doesn't mean it's OK... It might just mean that class sizes are perpetually crap.

I also don't think the average makeup of a class of 32 kids in 1994 is the same as a class of 32 today, so even if the class size is consistently crappy, it still might not be an apples-to-apples comparison.

And who's to say it's a concern at all? It's a number.

What's the ideal number? I dunno. Is 28 better than 30? Who knows. Are you assuming a smaller number = better teaching?

You're right. The makeup is different. But that's because there was a deliberate policy change to stop cohorts.

Ha ha, like I was in HS in 1994.

I can tell you that Alberta graduates are highly sought after by post-secondary institutions all over Canada. The competition is so fierce that the U of C and the U of A give acceptance letters in October in an attempt to keep kids in Alberta.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

I am curious what the CP minds have to say in regard to this. As someone I am wondering what solutions the non-education public has, as there is a problem.

Asking the non-education public for their thoughts on education is pretty much the same thing as asking people who drive cars their thoughts on the oil-and-gas industry.

You're going to get a lot of people who think they know what they are talking about exposing their ignorance.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by driveway

Asking the non-education public for their thoughts on education is pretty much the same thing as asking people who drive cars their thoughts on the oil-and-gas industry.

You're going to get a lot of people who think they know what they are talking about exposing their ignorance.

What's your thoughts on having trustees then, doing things like approving budgets. Damned non-education fools.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by driveway

Asking the non-education public for their thoughts on education is pretty much the same thing as asking people who drive cars their thoughts on the oil-and-gas industry.

You're going to get a lot of people who think they know what they are talking about exposing their ignorance.

lol, oh yeah. It's all so complicated and none of us ever job shadowed teachers for 13 years.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Do people think that PD days are days off for the teacher?

Professional Development. Depending on how strict administration is for each school, it's so the government can indoctrinate the teachers, so that they can later indoctrinate your kids. They have to be in the school or at a seminar, not skiing.

It inconvenienced me! Therefore I am enraged!

Reasons the marks are dropping.

Covid interruption.
Overflowing classrooms.
Poor curriculum.
No time for one-on-one instruction.
Less time for parents/tutors to help as the population gets poorer.
Mixed 10/20/40 classes, with little support.
New grading procedures.
Admin catering to parents.
Weak parenting that blames the teachers for poor results.
Overall air of hostility.
The governments "war on teachers".

I know what they're supposed to be for. But I have some teachers on social media, and I occasionally kinda pissed off at what shows up on a PD day in their feeds. I don't blame teachers though. It's management and above creating chaos and adding seemingly unnecessary complexity for parents with kids to have kids in school.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol, oh yeah. It's all so complicated and none of us ever job shadowed teachers for 13 years.

I feel like we talked about this exactly and three or four rounds ago when this came up...

It seems to me that on average, a person is better suited to comment on the education system than any other profession, precisely because they've spent 13 years directly interacting with the education system.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Sliver

My contention is class sizes are not a problem. I was in a class with 35 at one point in my schooling, but 30 - 32 was a regular thing. The sizes are fine. That's the job. You get a class of 30ish kids.

That isn’t the job in every school though. That’s the point you’re missing. Some schools have class sizes of around 15 students and some have well over 30. I doubt you‘d argue that students in a class of 15 wouldn’t have any possible advantage over students in a class of 30. (Actually maybe I should change that to “I doubt most people would argue” given your posting history, even though I’m generally a fan of your posts)

And just because you were able to succeed in that setting doesn’t mean everyone can. You’re also overlooking other factors such as learning/behavioural and language barriers. My kids went to the same school and my youngest despite being brilliant and very good at school work had a very hard time for the first few years because frankly the majority of her class was out of control. When we moved and they changed schools her grades shot up through the roof while her sister’s stayed about the same because her class at the old school wasn’t problematic. It’s an anecdotal example for sure but I doubt it’s an unlikely or uncommon scenario.

While it’s impossible to predict which classes will have more challenging students, you can mitigate the effects they’ll have on the other students by having smaller class sizes. Compare a class of 30 with 15 challenging students to a class of 20 with 15 challenging students. The teacher will still have to deal with the same number of challenging student but they will have much more time leftover to spend with each of the other students.

In a perfect world where every kid in a class of 30 has parents who take an active roll in their education, have the time(and more importantly the ability) to help them with their homework every night, every student speaks perfect English and none have ADHD or any other issues that may require them to need additional support I’d be inclined to agree with you that class sizes aren’t an issue. But unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world.

[smithtofuhr86]

Originally Posted by Locke

See, and my understanding is that Lord Beaverbrook, one of the biggest High Schools around, is essentially vacant after just being renovated.

Not anymore as of this year. Agreed it was certainly under capacity for a few years but starting in (2020-2021) they increased the boundaries to start taking pressure off of the High School in Seton and have slowly increased the boundaries Southward. I believe they started going from Douglasdale and have increased from there to the point this year (2023-2024) the school has saw a significant increase in the population amount which is good because as you probably are aware it can certainly handle it.

Schools like Scarlett have also started putting their foot down a bit and not taking kids that live close but aren't designated for them as much anymore which has helped. Henry Wisewood reminds me of Brad Treliving, always willing to listen and negotiable with new potential students. They certainly have an open door policy.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What do they complain about now, then? There is no way on God's green earth it comes to negotiation time and they just say, "nah, we good." The union's job is to get them something better every single time. They are kind of hitting the limit (one would think) on time off, their salaries are strong and they have the best benefits a large group can have. They need to have something to work teachers into a snit about for leverage against the taxpayers.

If they're saying class sizes are fine, my guess is they're going to focus on squeezing more on the salary end.

They complain about awful kids and parents mostly, and to some extent a lack of Educational Assistant support.

But in terms of bargaining, the only real notable changes last contract were pay increases, improved maternity top up (from 85% to 100% salary for 16 weeks), and a slight increase in prep time for elementary school teachers (basically music classes were extended by 10 minutes a week to allow teachers more prep time). Class sizes simply haven't been a real point of contention for the last 8 years since the Supreme Court restored the limits that existed prior to 2002.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by opendoor

They complain about awful kids and parents mostly, and to some extent a lack of Educational Assistant support.

But in terms of bargaining, the only real notable changes last contract were pay increases, improved maternity top up (from 85% to 100% salary for 16 weeks), and a slight increase in prep time for elementary school teachers (basically music classes were extended by 10 minutes a week to allow teachers more prep time). Class sizes simply haven't been a real point of contention for the last 8 years since the Supreme Court restored the limits that existed prior to 2002.

Yeah, well that's just it. A no-change contract is completely untenable to the union or teachers, so they'll always find an issue to squeeze. Once all the juice is squeezed out of the other issues, it'll be back to class sizes. We're just on a loop.