[PGT] Leafs 2 Flames 1

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The 960 guys are just trashing Monahan this morning. Trashing!

Monny looks seriously hurt still. He looks like he can barely skate or turn out there.

We saw how well this team did in 2 games without him. I'm sure he's pushing it to be out there before the season slips away.

What's the point in trashing him? Did they not see Edmonton humiliate us without our #1 center?

Hopefully it isnt the back again....

[Badgers Nose]

The strategy almost worked. One missed empty net was the difference.

Hard to be too upset about 3/4 points in Toronto. They are the better team on paper.

Like other have said, how Flames prepare and show up for the Sens will tell us a lot about this team. I'm not sure Tre has the options Bergevin has. It's more likely Flames run out the season with what they have.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So my answer is a bit of a long one, but pretty darn simple. I will use data from the past couple of decades which may help. And this data shows pretty easily that coaches impact player performance

Without even elaborating on the strengths, weaknesses, and the general objectives of each coach, I will lay out the data of Iggy, Kipper, the coach, and whether or not they made the playoffs

Coaches make a big difference between potential and actual achievement, individual and collective. Living in Calgary, we have seen a number of coaches of various styles, with other variables remaining constant

Look at Iginla’s point achievements. He emerged as a force in 2001-02, winning the Art Ross and Rocket Richard. Basically a premiere power forward in the conversation for best player in the game

Subsequently, point totals under various head coaches varied.
Also, let’s add in Kipper’s stats, and group by playoff and non playoff years

Playoff years
2003-04: Iggy: 73 pts, Kipper: 1.70, .933
2005-06: Iggy: 67 pts, Kipper: 2.07, .923
2006-07: Playfair: Iggy: 94 pts, Kipper: 2.46, .917
2007-08: Keenan: Iggy: 98 pts, Kipper: 2.69, .906
2008-09: Keenan: Iggy: 89 pts, Kipper: 2.84, .903

Non playoff years
2009-10: Brent: Iggy: 69 pts, Kipper: 2.31, .920
2010-11: Brent: Iggy: 86 pts, Kipper: 2.63, .906
2011-12: Brent: Iggy: 67 points, Kipper: 2.35, .921

2012-13: Hartley: Iggy: 22 points in 31 games, traded . Kipper: “#### this”


It’s really pretty much crystal clear.

The “it’s the players, not the coach” position you are trying to bring forward with false equivalency loses.

I don’t see anything that shows anything except Iginla got the most points under the most inexperienced coach and the most experienced in Playfair and semi-retirement Keenan, and tied for the least points under Darryl Sutter, who everyone would agree is the best coach of the bunch. And the tie year he was 34 compared with 28 under Hartley.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Monny looks seriously hurt still. He looks like he can barely skate or turn out there.

We saw how well this team did in 2 games without him. I'm sure he's pushing it to be out there before the season slips away.

What's the point in trashing him? Did they not see Edmonton humiliate us without our #1 center?

Hopefully it isnt the back again....

He looked great in the first Toronto game. Adrenaline maybe. I suppose they’re trashing him for OT? Stupid. Losing your guy in 3 on 3 happens. Pretty much every player is great offensively and if Johnny did that to Tavares, we’d be saying how clever he was crossing over.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t see anything that shows anything except Iginla got the most points under the most inexperienced coach and the most experienced in Playfair and semi-retirement Keenan, and tied for the least points under Darryl Sutter, who everyone would agree is the best coach of the bunch. And the tie year he was 34 compared with 28 under Hartley.

Agreed. The Brent Sutter years are the most confusing. Up and down for both Iggy and Kipper.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He looked great in the first Toronto game. Adrenaline maybe. I suppose they’re trashing him for OT? Stupid. Losing your guy in 3 on 3 happens. Pretty much every player is great offensively and if Johnny did that to Tavares, we’d be saying how clever he was crossing over.

I though Gio and Mony should have switched on the crossover so Mony wasn't chasing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Maybe. I look over to a team like Philly qnd I see a team that played some awful hockey under Hakstol and Berube, and they're currently on year 2 under Vigneault and playing a beautiful style of play that has followed AV almost everywhere he's coached. Maybe the Flyers aren't good enough either. But I'd rather see the Flames be about as good as the Flyers under a coach as well-suited to the Flames as AV is to the Flyers, than watch another year "our Hakstol(s)" square peg / round hole.

And when players are having fun, that's how you catch lightning in a bottle anyways.

Fair enough and I really wanted Vigneault here. Mainly because I liked that he laughed at Bieksa. But IMO Vigneault is about as good as there is, whereas people are talking Gerard Gallant here. And ain’t it funny how Berube wasn’t good enough in Philly but was in St. Louis?

[8sPOT]

I've been piling on the team lately and saying the core needs a shakeup, which I do believe. But that wasn't a bad game, and Monahan was pretty damn good throughout. One play in OT that happens all the time. Their goalie played well, we really should have scored that empty netter, but still got a point. 3 of 4 against the Leafs, we all would have been tickled pink with that result before these 2 games.

What bugs me the most, is Sportsnet. They were kind enough to show when Bennet and Hanifin had a lengthy shift, their little shift clock. Must have been a glitch because Spezza, Brodie, Holl, and Reilly all had shifts over 100 seconds, too, and Reilly twice.

I couldn't even watch the panel between periods, just disgusting. Matthews did sweet #### all this game but all you hear is how amazing he is.

This Flames team still needs some change but that wasn't a bad game. Oh and those refs in the 1st, wow.

[Huntsy]

Monahan should have apologized to Rittich and rest of Flames. This guy is just a complete lazy no emotion or passion player. First he loses the faceoff AGAIN. 5/15 again last night. Then thinks oh well let the Defense play defense but forgets there is only 1 Dman out there in OT. So I will glide like I usually do coming back and wait until Johnny gets the puck back. His effort on Nylander was so typical. He does not give a %*&*& about it. Lets get off the ice and go get a pizza. This guy needs to be disciplined and sat. He should be on the top of the list for trade bait. Yes at one time he was a decent player but he has fallen so much and is a big part of why this team has no passion right now..

[Huntsy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think Monahan and Gio got mixed up on the winning goal...Monahan hesitated it looks like he thought Gio was moving over

That should not happen to a veteran, Its desperation in OT. Monahan gets most of the OT time every game so to do that is not acceptable. You have to skate with both legs not coast and glide..No commitment or Passion in this man..

[bubbsy]

Why blame monahan? Everyone knows what he is and what he's not. Again, the gm did nothing to improve the top 6 forwards, so when the team continues to suck 5on5 and offensively, in general, look at "in on everything" treliving.

Useless gm

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think Monahan and Gio got mixed up on the winning goal...Monahan hesitated it looks like he thought Gio was moving over

That's what I thought as well. I couldn't understand the switch. Gio stays in the middle and Monahan stays on his side of the ice and takes away the off side attacker. The switch wasn't good because Monhan's angle of attack to stop Nylander from go to the net would have required him to go right through Gio's ice. It was a bad read by both.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Why blame monahan?

Because it’s his turn.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t see anything that shows anything except Iginla got the most points under the most inexperienced coach and the most experienced in Playfair and semi-retirement Keenan, and tied for the least points under Darryl Sutter, who everyone would agree is the best coach of the bunch. And the tie year he was 34 compared with 28 under Hartley.

Yeah, for sure, you will see what you want to

Nothing on the inverse correlation of Kiprusoff’s stats? Do you remember styles of play differing in any way under each coach?

It’s really blatantly obvious that there is correlation between coach and player performance

I can’t take it seriously if you pretend to make a case otherwise

Do you remember those years and peoples’ impressions of the players? So very many people here were talking about Kipper not being the goalie he used to be with Keenan, hoping for a ‘return to form’. It was dumb then and it’s dumb now.


Coach is fine, because the Flames have had ... several lousy coaches now. It’s the core. :eye roll:

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Why blame monahan?

Are you new here?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by united

Interesting situation with the challenge dilemma with about 1:30 remaining. Reminds me of the fourth down bots any NFL fans will be familiar with.

According to Evolving Hockey, the Flames' win probability one second before Nylander's tying goal was 94%.

Taking that into account, and the expected value of winning the challenge (Regulation win, TML still tie 6v5 then OT/SO win, TML still tie 6v5 then OT/SO loss) versus losing the challenge (TML PP goal in regulation, OT/SO loss, OT/SO win) I get a break-even challenge success of about 36%.

If the Flames thought there was a better than 36% chance of winning the challenge it would have been worthwhile. Tough call with nobody on Earth, including officials, knowing what constitutes goaltender interference.

Lots of assumptions in there but ballpark as a starting point.

I would have made the call to do it just to support the boys and fire them up.

This is where Ward fails most, IMO. He does not understand how to motivate and support this team with moves and adjustments when needed.

[Monahammer]

Also, Monahan doesn't deserve a pass for the goal in OT, but Gio is getting way too much slack around here. The guy is no where near the level of play he maintained even last year, let alone Norris season.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Also, Monahan doesn't deserve a pass for the goal in OT, but Gio is getting way too much slack around here. The guy is no where near the level of play he maintained even last year, let alone Norris season.

There was a mixup there between Monahan and Gio. You can actually question why Gio at this stage in his career is out on the ice in OT.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There was a mixup there between Monahan and Gio. You can actually question why Gio at this stage in his career is out on the ice in OT.

This.

Hanifin is our best skating defencemen and one of the best skaters in the league. Doesn't make it on the ice for 3-on-3.

I love Ras, but Hanifin should be our first, if not close 2nd, option for D in OT. Gio would be my 4th option.

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Also, Monahan doesn't deserve a pass for the goal in OT, but Gio is getting way too much slack around here. The guy is no where near the level of play he maintained even last year, let alone Norris season.

He’s 37, this was always coming. Father Time is undefeated.