[PGT] Leafs 2 Flames 1

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t know about any coach, or even Ward, if he had had a better run up to this season. I do know they played how Hartley wanted, until they didn’t. They played how GG wanted, until they didn’t. They played a great style under Peters until they didn’t.

It doesn’t have to be the whole team to screw it up either. It doesn’t have to be intentional - I’m sure Johnny isn’t coached to work his way into the corner with the puck and he knows that isn’t where he wants to be. But sometimes habits are hard to break.

I’m all for a better coach and there are a few candidates if they want to come. But they’ve had 4 guys with years of NHL experience who can’t all have just gotten all those previous positions out of dumb luck. They must know something.

Nope they don’t know anything.

It’s all about weak side D support on the breakout.

And ball bearings.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A better coach will no doubt get better results. But how much better with the same crew long term. GG got better results than Hartley over a season, with a similar lineup. Then they regressed. Peters looked like a “better coach” and he got results in one year. Next year, back to .500 under him. Ward took over and they improved, until the POs. This year they’ve settled back.

The 14-15 team overachieved under Hartley, relying on 3rd period comebacks to secure a playoff spot. The next year the goaltending bubble burst, and the team fell back down to Earth. Hartley was just a so-so coach, but the team was still rebuilding and simply didn't have the horses needed to contend. He wore out his welcome here after 2 seasons.

GG was just a bad hire and so was Ward.

The problem with Ward's system is apparent, and has already been discussed at length in various threads. Too passive, too hesitant, slow breakouts, giving the opposition defense ample time to set up their formation, and requiring dump-and-chase for a roster that isn't suited to play dump-and-chase.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Here is a list of players who are still with the team from Hartley's time:

Mark Giordano
Mikael Backlund
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Sam Bennett

That's it. That's literally it unless you want to include one game where Hartley coached Kylington against the Wild.

So do you believe it's Gio or Backlund who won't commit to a system?

Or let's assume it's the other three. Well they were all out there as a line today, meaning that the rest of the game they were not out there, and none of the other lines were executing successful breakouts and zone entries either.

Even Brodie is gone, replaced by Tanev.

We've had an almost complete roster overhaul, and I don't thinking changing three more players suddenly makes 18 other guys start making 5 foot passes.

I have no idea who will or won’t commit, but it could well be Gio and Backlund, especially the latter, who seems to play his own game most of the time. I know Johnny seems to refuse to change how he enters, probably for a few different reasons. As I keep saying, I don’t know how intentional it is.

Hartley I don’t think was fired because the players refused his system anyway. They just hated him. And Treliving didn’t want him.

What I do think is that if there’s an identifiable player who is an issue, you change the coach, because he’s failed but those players better also have a short leash.

But you think changing coaches makes those passes connect?

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Here is a list of players who are still with the team from Hartley's time:

Mark Giordano
Mikael Backlund
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Sam Bennett

That's it. That's literally it unless you want to include one game where Hartley coached Kylington against the Wild.

So do you believe it's Gio or Backlund who won't commit to a system?

Or let's assume it's the other three. Well they were all out there as a line today, meaning that the rest of the game they were not out there, and none of the other lines were executing successful breakouts and zone entries either.

Even Brodie is gone, replaced by Tanev.

We've had an almost complete roster overhaul, and I don't thinking changing three more players suddenly makes 18 other guys start making 5 foot passes.

It’s...the core of the roster.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

The 14-15 team overachieved under Hartley, relying on 3rd period comebacks to secure a playoff spot. The next year the goaltending bubble burst, and the team fell back down to Earth. Hartley was just a so-so coach, but the team was still rebuilding and simply didn't have the horses needed to contend.

GG was just a bad hire and so was Ward.

The problem with Ward's system is apparent, and has already been discussed at length in various threads. Too passive, too hesitant, slow breakouts, giving the opposition defense ample time to set up their formation, and requiring dump-and-chase for a roster that isn't suited to play dump-and-chase.

The game tonight, and last night did not have slow breakouts. They tried to move quickly, and failed.

This roster could dump a and chase just fine if they committed to it. You don’t have to be big or even that fast. You have to not hesitate. Watch Lucic, watch Mangiapane - they successfully dump and chase all the time. Hell, Johnny used to be great at it, so did Tkachuk and Lindholm.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Watched the game.

Refs had it out for us early but surprise it’s Calgary. same with the last game. When was Calgary’s last extended 5 on 3? The call on chucky was marginal. Boyd stepped on his stick. And some of the other calls were difficult to justify.

Flames d corps is competing back there and the forwards are playing deep but I think they forget that in hockey a good offence is good defence. This team cannot cycle nor play strong puck possession hockey and cannot exit their zone with control that often. This says all I need about their playoff potential. Sadly another moribund season.

The tying goal was disgusting. How many times do we see a ref lose sight for a millisecond then blow the whistle when the flames are pressing? Enough I’d say. And Hyman was completely camped in the blue paint. He wasn’t hit that hard to end up there but didn’t try to move either.


However the pk looked good because we were aggressive. And our best pk’r was bsd. He made some timely saves when we needed them. Yet the whole unit looks improved and should be able to take pride from their effort in this respect the last two games.

Forwards outside of mangiapane look perimeter based. Benny on the top line is a downgrade from lindholm but I think they can get better. They have small flashes as a line but not enough work as a three Man Unit. It seems as if they don’t have each other figured out. That line doesn’t win board battles. This isn’t international ice. The small ice of the nhl assures board battles will be aplomb. Our players battle on occasion but never consistently. Too many plays taken off and too many details over looked.

I hate to say it but this team is a middling a group as one will see in this league. No cup for us with this core. I think mark stone might have been the ship that sailed.

Who would u want right now? Valimaki and Zary or mark stone? Tough call.

Mark stone precludes us from marky and Tanev.

Mark stone or valimaki, markstrom Tanev and zary I suppose then.

I think stone is the answer because he scores the other four don’t. Our projected ev strength goal out put is anemic. Like an objectively bad number in comparisons to good teams.

This team isn’t good. This team needs to fix whatever is the elephant in the room as a group or they will be chastised as a group of individuals. Either way the solution has to come from that room since no reinforcements are on any horizon.


Monohan has good hands when he gets the puck but he’s not fast, shifty or determined to take the puck to the net. The winning goal doesn’t reflect on him well and his newly decried commitment to defence and physicality. I think the teams needs him but the team is inherently flawed and will never challenge for a cup.

We are wasting prime years of miscast players and it seems our professional development is stagnating. Which players get better once they get to the big ice with us? Eats bread? Chucky looks like he has regressed. Monny same. Benny has regressed. Johnny looks like he has renewed pride in his craft a bit. Hanifin not progressing on offence. Kyllington just stagnates with elite tools. Sadly I think this team hasn’t hired the right personnel to augment the on ice group enough.



This team is mercurial with effort and commitment.

Go back to the lindholm as a rw. His play at center is good but not good enough to offset how bad the first line looks now. What made hudler so successful with our maligned top line? He could play make and stick handle well enough to keep up. Lindholm is our closest to that who possesses any lick of confidence in their offensive game. Benny needs more time up there to get a better sense of spacing so he can improve the line. Perhaps he isn’t a good enough trigger man for those two but he does have 3G in six games with those two. Ferland worked well with them sigh.

This team has been mentally fragile since the Colorado and referee playoffs of 2018 -19. Coaches are the easiest thing to change on a team in a salary cap world. Bring in julien or gallant or boudreau. Ward isn’t boosting any facet of the team to offset the boring tentative hockey we have seen this season from this group.

I say mentally fragile because when they have a lead the seem to allow the pressure to get to them. Look at the goal in game two of that Colorado series where they gave up the tie with a minute to go to jt compher?It’s a recurring type of mentality when this team has a lead. They play to not lose but end up looking passive and tentative. That Vancouver game where boeser scored late to tie. It it weren’t overtime during the regular season we probably lose that game.

This team should be better with the depth they have of quality players in their top six and top nine. This makes me think it’s the coach that could be changed and give this team the biggest boost. Julien would be a hard ass that I think this team needs. Ward isn’t a hard ass it seems. Plus Claude has a ring.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But you think changing coaches makes those passes connect?

I think when players play instinctively, passes connect.

Players play instinctively when they are confident.

Confident that they and their linemates are where they expect them to be within the system.

Confident that the outlet person will drive the play forward.

Confident that they can make turnover on a potentially risky play and not cost their team the entire game.

Confident that they can thread the needle on a seam pass instead of shooting from the strong side.

Confident that they are truly making a play, not just preventing the opponent from making a play.

Confident that they're not letting the team down by doing what their instincts tell them to do rather than chipping the puck out to a safe spot and going off for a line change.

In other words - having fun out there.

They rarely did that under Gulutzan or Ward. They did that for Hartley and for a period of time under Peters, but following the all star break this changed. Clearly there is one style of play which two of the four coaches completely failed to harness, and the third abandoned for reasons unknown.

I'm not talking wins and losses.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Here is a list of players who are still with the team from Hartley's time:

Mark Giordano
Mikael Backlund
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Sam Bennett

That's it. That's literally it unless you want to include one game where Hartley coached Kylington against the Wild.

So do you believe it's Gio or Backlund who won't commit to a system?

Or let's assume it's the other three. Well they were all out there as a line today, meaning that the rest of the game they were not out there, and none of the other lines were executing successful breakouts and zone entries either.

Even Brodie is gone, replaced by Tanev.

We've had an almost complete roster overhaul, and I don't thinking changing three more players suddenly makes 18 other guys start making 5 foot passes.

My view is that it is the top forwards that need to be changed. One can decide how far down that group to go - but that's the part of the roster that has been relatively untouched.

And again it might simply be that talent for talent, our top line players are not as good as other top line players.

I think Gio is different. I think Bingo was right when he observed that Gio has had to, for his entire career, perform at his max to prove himself. So when he hits the playoffs, he doesn't have another gear. He operates at his highest gear always.

[dino7c]

I think Monahan and Gio got mixed up on the winning goal...Monahan hesitated it looks like he thought Gio was moving over

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, absolutely. And I think both are valid also.

However, there is a fundamental difference between the two data points, with respect to dealing with them:

One is a simple binary decision - replace, or don't

The other is a long-term, evolutionary process that not only takes years, but is already in progress and is always in progress. And each and every one of the players is fluid - they can be better or worse, depending on utilization, confidence, line-mates, etc. So much, much more difficult to ascertain, and requiring a much larger data set to determine.

I think we have enough data to tell us that this group isn't going to win a Cup. So I would go about the business of changing that. Re-tool or re-build. I would do the latter but suspect it will be the former, which will probably lead to the latter.

But that's difficult to do in-season, and more difficult this season.

So I also don't see the downside in changing the coach.
If it were up to me I would change the coach now and then try to change the roster (mainly the forward group) in the offseason

As I said the other day.

I love the goalie
I like the D
I don't like the forwards
And i don't like the Coach

[zamler]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t know about any coach, or even Ward, if he had had a better run up to this season. I do know they played how Hartley wanted, until they didn’t. They played how GG wanted, until they didn’t. They played a great style under Peters until they didn’t.

It doesn’t have to be the whole team to screw it up either. It doesn’t have to be intentional - I’m sure Johnny isn’t coached to work his way into the corner with the puck and he knows that isn’t where he wants to be. But sometimes habits are hard to break.

I’m all for a better coach and there are a few candidates if they want to come. But they’ve had 4 guys with years of NHL experience who can’t all have just gotten all those previous positions out of dumb luck. They must know something.

If I take what you've been saying in totality, you don't think anything can make this team better. Maybe my mental picture is wrong but that's the impression I get.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So I also don't see the downside in changing the coach.
If it were up to me I would change the coach now and then try to change the roster (mainly the forward group) in the offseason

As I said the other day.

I love the goalie
I like the D
I don't like the forwards
And i don't like the Coach

Agree with all this, the question is will the team want yet another coach to pay to not coach for them? I think the answer is an easy no. But if they want to can Ward, fine with me. Not a fan of a lot of his decisions. But how does BT or ownership pull the trigger after just extending him for a team that's not going to win much of anything anyways? I think the coach and any major roster moves are both waiting until after the season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Nope they don’t know anything.

It’s all about weak side D support on the breakout.

And ball bearings.

Everything’s ball bearings now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by zamler

If I take what you've been saying in totality, you don't think anything can make this team better. Maybe my mental picture is wrong but that's the impression I get.

Better? Sure, especially short term. Good enough? I have my doubts.

ETA: I think a lot of people are understandably hoping that a coaching change is the magic that makes this team great. I think it’s too flawed.

[zamler]

Tre should have been sacked the day he said he was promoting Ward. Only way I can give him a pass is if literally no other available or soon to be coach wanted to take the job in Calgary.

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=Jiri Hrdina;7756591]My view is that it is the top forwards that need to be changed. One can decide how far down that group to go - but that's the part of the roster that has been relatively untouched.

And again it might simply be that talent for talent, our top line players are not as good as other top line players.

I think Gio is different. I think Bingo was right when he observed that Gio has had to, for his entire career, perform at his max to prove himself. So when he hits the playoffs, he doesn't have another gear. He operates at his highest gear always.[/QUOTE]

I am going to nitpick this part of your post because I really dislike that argument. Gio is not alone in being a high effort player during the season, many players have earned a living doing that.

Players don't magically get faster and make better decisions in the playoffs. There is more intensity for sure.

But we have seen Gio exposed a little in the playoffs. Some of that is good game planning by the opposition, and some of that is poor decision making on his part. I 100% don't think it's because the game is suddenly faster and he can't keep up because all the players had been keeping that extra gear in reserve.

Little holes in your game become big holes in the playoffs, generally because of the quality of the opposition. Unfortunately for the Flames, we're usually playing teams that are better than us in the playoffs and our guys suddenly don't look so good.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My view is that it is the top forwards that need to be changed. One can decide how far down that group to go - but that's the part of the roster that has been relatively untouched.

And again it might simply be that talent for talent, our top line players are not as good as other top line players.

I think Gio is different. I think Bingo was right when he observed that Gio has had to, for his entire career, perform at his max to prove himself. So when he hits the playoffs, he doesn't have another gear. He operates at his highest gear always.

And unfortunately for Gio and us, his top gear ain’t half of what it was. TBF, I thought he played pretty well tonight.

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think Monahan and Gio got mixed up on the winning goal...Monahan hesitated it looks like he thought Gio was moving over

That’s 3 on 3 - try to create clear openings by confusing the D or creating picks. I can’t be too upset with a mistake in OT - that’s how they all end, no matter who wins.

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You didn't ask me but I don't think this team is committed to consistently doing what is required to win.

And/or they simply don't have the talent.

Pick your poison.

I have said many very not nice things about players and staff in the Flames organization over the years on this website and others, but I don't believe I've ever said a player doesn't care or lacks commitment. If I did I'm sorry because this stuff is bull ####. That's crossing the line from criticism of players and staff which I think fans have every right to do, to questioning the character of someone you don't know the first thing about besides what you see on the TV. It's garbage and it makes for a toxic fan base.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Better? Sure, especially short term. Good enough? I have my doubts.

Maybe. I look over to a team like Philly qnd I see a team that played some awful hockey under Hakstol and Berube, and they're currently on year 2 under Vigneault and playing a beautiful style of play that has followed AV almost everywhere he's coached. Maybe the Flyers aren't good enough either. But I'd rather see the Flames be about as good as the Flyers under a coach as well-suited to the Flames as AV is to the Flyers, than watch another year "our Hakstol(s)" square peg / round hole.

And when players are having fun, that's how you catch lightning in a bottle anyways.

[united]

Interesting situation with the challenge dilemma with about 1:30 remaining. Reminds me of the fourth down bots any NFL fans will be familiar with.

According to Evolving Hockey, the Flames' win probability one second before Nylander's tying goal was 94%.

Taking that into account, and the expected value of winning the challenge (Regulation win, TML still tie 6v5 then OT/SO win, TML still tie 6v5 then OT/SO loss) versus losing the challenge (TML PP goal in regulation, OT/SO loss, OT/SO win) I get a break-even challenge success of about 36%.

If the Flames thought there was a better than 36% chance of winning the challenge it would have been worthwhile. Tough call with nobody on Earth, including officials, knowing what constitutes goaltender interference.

Lots of assumptions in there but ballpark as a starting point.