American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[PeteMoss]

The only people who care about the presidents physical fitness are people who hate the president. Trump walking up the stairs at that military event was replayed a billion times by his haters or his not being able to drink a glass of water with one hand was a big discussion point.

No one really cares. No one really cared about Bush throwing that pitch at 9/11. It was a good pitch - so writers could make metaphors about it. If he had slipped and fallen off the mound - they would write about its a story about how America fell on 9/11 but got back up.

It doesn't make America strong or soft. They could elect an actual sloth as president and as long as they have the most powerful army in the world and bunch of nukes - everyone will treat them the same.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The only people who care about the presidents physical fitness are people who hate the president. Trump walking up the stairs at that military event was replayed a billion times by his haters or his not being able to drink a glass of water with one hand was a big discussion point.

No one really cares. No one really cared about Bush throwing that pitch at 9/11. It was a good pitch - so writers could make metaphors about it. If he had slipped and fallen off the mound - they would write about its a story about how America fell on 9/11 but got back up.

It doesn't make America strong or soft. They could elect an actual sloth as president and as long as they have the most powerful army in the world and bunch of nukes - everyone will treat them the same.

Trump also made a big deal about his health which brought a lot of attention to it.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People keep saying this like it’s more compelling than the fact that people are working full time jobs that do not pay them enough to live.

Yes, businesses are full of people. If you close businesses you affect people negatively. But what’s the value of a business that can only function on paying people less than they can afford to live?

If you believe in the wonderful powers of capitalism and the basic elements of supply and demand, then you have to believe those businesses either a) won’t close or b) will see the gap of their closure filled by another business. If not, a business that pays people too little to live and exists without appropriate demand is pointless.

Our options are:
1. Ensure people are paid a living wage, regardless of where they are, and adjust as necessary
2. Have the government pay people a universal basic income that ensures they have a living wage

Is this just because of wages? Why not target costs of goods, services, and housing to mandate a 50% cut in prices of all these?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Is this just because of wages? Why not target costs of goods, services, and housing to mandate a 50% cut in prices of all these?

How are you going to do that? Seems like a heck of a lot more effort to accomplish that and would close a lot more businesses than just increasing a minimum wage.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

How are you going to do that? Seems like a heck of a lot more effort to accomplish that and would close a lot more businesses than just increasing a minimum wage.

I wouldn't do that. It would be kind of silly to look at a complex system with systematic problems and just crank hard on one lever to fix the system's problems. It would certainly cause a lot of other problems.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I wouldn't do that. It would be kind of silly to look at a complex system with systematic problems and just crank hard on one lever to fix the system's problems. It would certainly cause a lot of other problems.

Well sure - but I don't think anyone is suggesting raising minimum wage and then hanging the mission accomplished banner and going home.

Minimum wage has been increased in a lot of places. There is data out there to see what problems it caused.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Do you actually mean that?

Doing that would just mandate business closures.

This all reminds me of the hand wringing when restaurants and bars were all going to shut down when you weren't allowed to smoke in them anymore.

Most agree $0 minimum wage is bad, and $100 minimum wage is bad.

Starting from there, you have a lot of jobs that used to be a living wage producing occupation (grocery store clerk) that no longer are. There is also a pay divide between executives and upper management to front line workers that has gotten significantly wider. Hence people advocating higher minimum wage as a way to force wealth redistribution that isn't happening out of the goodness of the executives hearts.

One side effect of wealth distribution is more customers. Currently, you have a decent swath of the population that isn't going out to a sit down restaurant because they can't afford it, among many other things. Putting more disposable income in their hands can theoretically generate economic activity.

Maybe minimum wage isn't the best way to do this. Maybe UBI is, coupled with more aggressive progressive taxation.

Either way, it's a problem in dire need of us trying something.

[DownInFlames]

Threats of terrorism in a campaign ad. The bar sinks ever lower.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1538881246109093890

[activeStick]

Well, that's a bit terrifying...

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People keep saying this like it’s more compelling than the fact that people are working full time jobs that do not pay them enough to live.

Yes, businesses are full of people. If you close businesses you affect people negatively. But what’s the value of a business that can only function on paying people less than they can afford to live?

If you believe in the wonderful powers of capitalism and the basic elements of supply and demand, then you have to believe those businesses either a) won’t close or b) will see the gap of their closure filled by another business. If not, a business that pays people too little to live and exists without appropriate demand is pointless.

There are areas of the US where it is not economically viable to have shops and restaurants and similar local businesses if the min wage is $15. If those businesses shut their doors, then that town loses those businesses and people will have to travel to a bigger town or city for those things. I'm not convinced that is a positive consequence.

Our options are:
1. Ensure people are paid a living wage, regardless of where they are, and adjust as necessary
2. Have the government pay people a universal basic income that ensures they have a living wage

Then you agree that a $15 national min wage is a bad idea since it doesn't accomplish either of those things.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Is this just because of wages? Why not target costs of goods, services, and housing to mandate a 50% cut in prices of all these?

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I wouldn't do that. It would be kind of silly to look at a complex system with systematic problems and just crank hard on one lever to fix the system's problems. It would certainly cause a lot of other problems.

It would also be kind of silly to pretend a 50% reduction in the cost of literally everything is a remotely logical comparison to raising the wages of those who are below a living wage to a living wage, but you still went ahead with it, so let’s not pretend silly is out of the question.

As much as I do love a good socialist utopia (reduce by 50%? forget it, let’s make everything free and just give it out according to need), we’re talking things that are a little more realistic here. The rebuttals are just the same tired excuses.

“But it will cause problems!” Cool, which problems and how exactly? Because we’re trying to fix a very big problem that exists right now, not hypothetical fantasy problems that may or may not exist in the future.

“But businesses will close!” maybe they’re bad businesses? Businesses close now. What are you doing to save them now? There will be more people with more money, perhaps they will even be able to save enough to start that business they’ve always wanted to start!

“$15 isn’t the magic number!” cool, let’s find the number that is correct, whether that’s city-by-city or area-by-area, and go with that one.

“What about business owners?” What about the greater numbers of people they employ?

“Costs will just go up!” Sure, and let’s have the living wage everyone gets go up with them. A select number of people hold the vast majority of the wealth, and people are acting like it’s a bad thing if people at the bottom rung keep getting more money and the gap starts to close.

The system isn’t that complex. We invented it. Every single complexity that exists is one we invented and one we can change if we want to.

The biggest single issue is that people don’t want it to change. People like that there are people who are poorer than they are. The system might be broken, but gosh darn it, I’ve done ok so how bad can it be. Any change that might have an impact on them that could be perceived as negative is too much.

As I said, mandate higher minimum wages to match a cost of living, or implement a UBI. We’re all paying for it either way, so let’s go. Or everyone middle class and lower can keep licking the boots of the rich and continue waiting patiently for whatever they want to send down the line. Because it’s been so, so much, hasn’t it?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

There are areas of the US where it is not economically viable to have shops and restaurants and similar local businesses if the min wage is $15. If those businesses shut their doors, then that town loses those businesses and people will have to travel to a bigger town or city for those things. I'm not convinced that is a positive consequence.

Then you agree that a $15 national min wage is a bad idea since it doesn't accomplish either of those things.

I find your hypotheticals really boring and pointless to respond to. I don’t care about some fantasy town or area in your mind. You ignore the fact that people will have more money to spend at more businesses and more businesses will open to meet the greater demand for products or services, so how am I supposed to take this seriously? As I said, let’s talk reality. If all you have is fantasies, that’s boring. Who cares? I can read a novel if I want a made up story and those are usually more entertaining.

And yes, I agree that a $15 national minimum wage is a bad idea. It should be $15 as a baseline, and higher in places where it doesn’t meet the cost of living. Cost of living in Mississippi is $15.66 I believe, and it’s the cheapest state in the US. Good benchmark. Let’s make it happen.

[photon]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1538647426348859393

[Fuzz]

I've been told religion is a source for good in this world...

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I find your hypotheticals really boring and pointless to respond to. I don’t care about some fantasy town or area in your mind. You ignore the fact that people will have more money to spend at more businesses and more businesses will open to meet the greater demand for products or services, so how am I supposed to take this seriously? As I said, let’s talk reality. If all you have is fantasies, that’s boring. Who cares? I can read a novel if I want a made up story and those are usually more entertaining.

And yes, I agree that a $15 national minimum wage is a bad idea. It should be $15 as a baseline, and higher in places where it doesn’t meet the cost of living. Cost of living in Mississippi is $15.66 I believe, and it’s the cheapest state in the US. Good benchmark. Let’s make it happen.

A $15 min wage in Mississippi would cause businesses to close in some areas and people to lose their jobs. There is just not enough money in some local economies to absorb that increase.

If you are ok with that, then fine. But at that point it just seems like you are more concerned with wins for "progressive" ideas than actually benefitting people.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

A $15 min wage in Mississippi would cause businesses to close in some areas and people to lose their jobs. There is just not enough money in some local economies to absorb that increase.

If you are ok with that, then fine. But at that point it just seems like you are more concerned with wins for "progressive" ideas than actually benefitting people.

Cool, UBI then. Glad we agree it's the best option for everyone.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

A $15 min wage in Mississippi would cause businesses to close in some areas and people to lose their jobs.

Can you back this up with any evidence?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Cool, UBI then. Glad we agree it's the best option for everyone.

You forget let people navigate themselves through a patchwork version of state and federal supports, allow them to become homeless or turn to petty crime. This way the burdens to the system are hidden and difficult to quantify.

Not providing a living wage or a UBI is a perfectly valid choice politically. People don’t like saying I am okay for a person working full time for minimum wage not to be able to afford children, healthcare, or housing.

It’s not the position I would choose but it is the current choice of many jurisdictions including ones with $15 minimum wages.

[PeteMoss]

Mississippi minimum wage is $7.25 right now. Heck - even $10 would be a decent increase.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Can you back this up with any evidence?

I don’t think there are any examples of doubling a min wage in an economy similar to areas in Mississippi in terms of the total pool of money and average income. So it’s kind of guessing. Raising min wage isn’t going to bring more money into a small, local economy.