Canadian Military News

[Bigtime]

It appears that the government will announce the Airbus C-295 as the replacement for the Buffalo and some Hercs tomorrow that are used for Search and Rescue:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fixe...anes-1.3885653

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EADS_CASA_C-295

[Lubicon]

Amazed that this government actually made a decision regarding the military, but then again it involves touchy feely stuff (Search and Rescue) so they can feel good about it while still pretending they care about our Forces. I was looking briefly at the two front runners and on first glance seem a little surprised they went with the Airbus product over the Alenia C27J which seems to be almost a miniature C130 and looked to have a lot of common features and items from the Hercs so some possible commonality but what do I know. I'm just glad they are moving ahead with these one way or another.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

Amazed that this government actually made a decision regarding the military

Ya, and it only took 13 yrs. Stoopid government.......

I remember watching a documentary a few years back about our search & rescue and the total lack of IR googles for flying at night. They recounted a story of some guy being stuck on a drifting iceburg or something and flew right over him at night due to the lack of IR. Could have rescued him much sooner if they had the right gear.

[automaton 3]

Replacing 2 very different aircraft here. C295 should be a capable aircraft for us, but doesn't have near the legs as the C-130.

Will be interesting to see if any additional bases will be added to cover the SAR zone (CYZF?).

[Bigtime]

http://www.cp24.com/news/canada-to-b...lion-1.3194839

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

Amazed that this government actually made a decision regarding the military, but then again it involves touchy feely stuff (Search and Rescue) so they can feel good about it while still pretending they care about our Forces.

There is nothing "touch feely" about SAR Techs.


That job is ####ing nuts.


No way on earth I do that job.


All those individuals involves in Search and Rescue are generally hard as ####.

[RougeUnderoos]

Why do these planes cost 150 million bucks? I don't know much (anything) about the aviation industry but damn that seems expensive.

I did some research (I googled for two seconds and read one result) and according to Forbes, you can get a 787 Dreamliner for less than that. Or you could a couple years ago, at least.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why do these planes cost 150 million bucks? I don't know much (anything) about the aviation industry but damn that seems expensive.

I did some research (I googled for two seconds and read one result) and according to Forbes, you can get a 787 Dreamliner for less than that. Or you could a couple years ago, at least.

That would be the cost outfitted with SAR gear, I would assume.

Question, does search and rescue in Canada use the Challenger at all, I see the Australians have ordered, are using them for coastal SAR?

[speede5]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why do these planes cost 150 million bucks? I don't know much (anything) about the aviation industry but damn that seems expensive.

I did some research (I googled for two seconds and read one result) and according to Forbes, you can get a 787 Dreamliner for less than that. Or you could a couple years ago, at least.

Because anything with a mil spec costs 5x what a civilian pays for it.

I buy parts everyday and it's nuts. Manufacturers have their hands so deep in the militarys pockets it's insane.

[speede5]

Seriously though the initial purchase will include support equipment, sims, training, etc. although that price still seems high. I thought maintennace was included in the initial but then later it mentions an add on for maintenance.

[socktape]

Originally Posted by speede5

Because anything with a mil spec costs 5x what a civilian pays for it.

I buy parts everyday and it's nuts. Manufacturers have their hands so deep in the militarys pockets it's insane.

I smell business opportunity... military equipment at a discount price!(cost + reasonable margin)

[Violator]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

It appears that the government will announce the Airbus C-295 as the replacement for the Buffalo and some Hercs tomorrow that are used for Search and Rescue:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fixe...anes-1.3885653

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EADS_CASA_C-295

That's hilarious the training is in comox on one side of the country the maintenance is on the complete opposite side of the country is that normal?

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Flacker

That would be the cost outfitted with SAR gear, I would assume.

Question, does search and rescue in Canada use the Challenger at all, I see the Australians have ordered, are using them for coastal SAR?

I gather it is difficult for the SAR techs to parachute out of a bizjet.....

The giant cost per airframe also includes a 20 year maintenance contract right?

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

I gather it is difficult for the SAR techs to parachute out of a bizjet.....

The giant cost per airframe also includes a 20 year maintenance contract right?

The Challenger is being used by the Aussies as a pure search aircraft outfitted with FLIR, etc. Seems like a good idea.

Rocket the Challenger out to pinpoint them, then dispatch the turboprops/choppers/surface vessels to perform the rescue.


The maintenance is an added 2.3B if I am reading correctly.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

There is nothing "touch feely" about SAR Techs.


That job is ####ing nuts.


No way on earth I do that job.


All those individuals involves in Search and Rescue are generally hard as ####.

I could read about SAR Techs all day. What they do is freakin' insane

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Violator

That's hilarious the training is in comox on one side of the country the maintenance is on the complete opposite side of the country is that normal?

It's not really an issue. Most of the training would be for aircrew, and they would just have a school with sims, and fly within a unit.

Maintenance (referring to heavy maintenance) is wherever makes sense to set it up. Military pers would still handle the day to day snags and such at the unit.

Spreads the wealth too.

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why do these planes cost 150 million bucks? I don't know much (anything) about the aviation industry but damn that seems expensive.

I did some research (I googled for two seconds and read one result) and according to Forbes, you can get a 787 Dreamliner for less than that. Or you could a couple years ago, at least.

Like others have said, military spec aircraft have lots of custom modifications that drive up the price.

Also, Boeing specifies the list price of the 787-8 at $224M.

http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/

Now obviously, no one pays list price because airlines buy in bulk. But these numbers are not unrealistic.

Planes are expensive, bro

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

There is nothing "touch feely" about SAR Techs.


That job is ####ing nuts.


No way on earth I do that job.


All those individuals involves in Search and Rescue are generally hard as ####.

Sorry, my intention was not to paint SAR and those people who do it as touchy feely, I fully realize what they do and who they are. My point (poorly made) was that it's a touchy feely subject for the government. It involves rescuing people and saving lives and who doesn't like that and you can always portray that in a positive manner and make it an easy sell to the taxpayer. I've always had the feeling that our Liberal governments, and this one in particular is not comfortable with other things military forces do and which ours can do particularly well if necessary and that is use deadly force. That is the 'non touchy feely' stuff that they seem to do everything they can to avoid talking about or dealing with.

SAR = feel good becasuse it involves saving lives
Fighter jets, guns, combat etc. - makes our government uncomfortable it seems.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

There is nothing "touch feely" about SAR Techs.


That job is ####ing nuts.


No way on earth I do that job.


All those individuals involves in Search and Rescue are generally hard as ####.

Why is that? Genuinely curious. My grandfather was a SAR pilot in WWII, I have absolutely no idea what he did.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Why is that? Genuinely curious. My grandfather was a SAR pilot in WWII, I have absolutely no idea what he did.

In short, they go to places that others are trying to get the #### away from, in conditions nobody wants to work in.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/arti...cians/hs7g0ibb

https://bootcampmilitaryfitnessinsti...tion-training/

1.3 General Duties of a SAR Tech

CFSSAR Course 48 Graduation ParadeSAR Tech perform duties, which are carried out in all environments, related to search and rescue operations by:

Penetrating wilderness areas by parachute, rappelling, climbing, back-packing and using all-terrain vehicles;
Performing water rescues wearing compressed air breathing apparatus (CABA);
Providing life-saving and sustaining medical care;
Conducting parachute operations day or night over water and all types of terrain;
Moving casualties by improvised and standard stretcher for long distances (one end of shared loads of 90 Kg);
Conducting hoisting/rappelling action from helicopter over sea and all types of terrain;
Conducting diving operations using CABA;
Dispatching SAR equipment from low flying aircraft while working around open doors or ramps;
Conducting mountain rescue operations by climbing rock or ice formations on foot with heavy packs;
Wearing personal survival equipment of 12 Kg while airborne, 12 hours per day;
Loading equipment weighing up to 40 Kg onto aircraft lifting 1.5 m from ground to aircraft;
Responding to in-flight emergencies including fire-fighting;
Remaining highly alert for up to 20 hour per day;
Enduring up to 8 hours of low level flying in bad weather conducting search ops;
Enduring emotional stress of conducting triage in mass casualty situations and when handling human remains;
Enduring immersion in cold water when rescuing victims (includes swimming to, harnessing and being hoisted to a helicopter with the victim); and/or
Enduring high noise, vibration and heat inherent in aircraft operations.

The missions don't always go well, and they are under funded and staffed:

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight..._go_wrong.html

5:33 p.m.

Back up north, Gilbert and his colleagues weigh the risk. If they jump, they know they’ll be without the radio contact — and moral support — of an aircraft keeping watch overhead. And they know the Cormorant chopper plodding up the coast is still hours away.

But with the hunters now unresponsive, they don’t think they have a choice. With daylight dwindling, they parachute from the Hercules.

“Initially we had contact with one SAR tech. It was brief and then it cut out,” the Hercules crew tells the rescue coordination centre after the jump.

“We have seen strobe lights in the water . . . They are still some distance and they are working toward each other by the looks of it but unable to contact them on any frequency,” the crew says, as their plane turns for Iqaluit. The pilots are nearing the legal limit of their duty day and don’t think they’ll get back.

Below, the SAR techs are fighting for their lives.

One has been able to swim to the raft with the hunters and climbs aboard. The second SAR tech tries swimming to the raft but gives up when he can’t fight the waves any longer. He deploys his own one-man life raft, climbs in and starts bailing water.

High winds blew Gilbert off course during the jump and he has become separated from the others.

The SAR techs had agreed that upon landing they would activate one personal locator beacon to indicate they were OK; two if they needed help.

After the jump, one beacon was detected, as planned.

Then from the Arctic darkness comes an electronic cry for help. A second beacon is picked up by satellites, indicating the rescue has gone awry.

6:53 p.m.

The worried calls now start from 8 Wing Trenton, home base for the SAR techs. Told of the plight of the three SAR techs, their deputy commander responds bluntly, “Holy s---.”

“Are they actually on ice or in the water,” Maj. Colin Duncan says in a telephone conversation with the rescue co-ordinator.

“I don’t know. The water there was slushy water. They were in open water for a while . . . they were in the water swimming toward each other,” the RCC officer responds.

“Oh man,” Duncan responds.

“The SAR techs took the decision to jump. We agreed.. . . Now we have the situation with the two beacons going off. We have no idea what is going on,” the RCC says.

With his men in the water, Duncan urges action.

“I think if we’ve got guys in the water and we’ve lost communications with the boat, we absolutely need to get people on top,” Duncan says.

But at this point, the three SAR techs might as well be on the moon. The Cormorant is still two hours away.

In the blunt assessment of the rescue co-ordinate centre, “They are on their own.”

Despite the “emergency situation,” there is no aircraft to provide cover for the SAR techs. Nor is there an aircraft to accompany the Cormorant on its overwater leg. The Hercules from Greenwood is still hours away.