COVID-19 Vaccine Talk, 2nd Dose

[Azure]

Originally Posted by ikaris

But if you're healthy, wouldn't natural immunity be just fine? I didn't realize we did not have hundreds of years of evidence that shows that natural immunity works. Especially in the context of mandates where a significant population already has had COVID. It's why we saw many countries recognize a positive COVID test OR vaccination.

I just think it's insane that this wasn't properly discussed during the pandemic and was tossed aside when rational people brought this up.

The reason this annoys the hell out of me is because I don't know a SINGLE person, or even heard of anyone within my circle of friends & family, or even business associates, their circle or literally anyone I have ever even talked about vaccines with, who has had an adverse reaction to the standard vaccines that they got as children. Literally not a single person.

So when I approached COVID vaccination, and when many of those people approached COVID vaccination, we all approached it from the same perspective as other vaccines. As per public health authorities, very safe, and risk of any issues is 'less worse than getting COVID'. And like everyone else, I had countless discussions, and read countless conversations on places like CP and elsewhere, and the consensus among all those people was a very dogmatic 'better get vaccinated or we all think you're a loony toon' approach. Even in the last 10 posts, opendoor, whom many on here thought actually knew something about vaccination has now TWICE said that he supports private companies having a forced vaccination policy because 'it weeds out the whackos.' Has nothing to do with people having a reason to be vaccinated or not, or possible health effects, risk factor, being an expectant mother, or anything like that.

Just a narrow minded if you are not vaccinated = you are a whacko.


Also, within that same circle of people I was talking about above there are a couple friends that have what the doctors are calling a lifelong heart issue as a result of the vaccination. On top of that, these people would fall into the group that was not at risk.

Turns out the risks to the vaccines were higher than originally stated.

Information that wasn't presented to people properly.

But still, in 2023 there is support for the idea that if you are STILL not vaccinated = your are a whacko.

Also don't forget 'most people have moved on.'

Hilariously pathetic to read.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

This wasn't really a trick. The vaccines were initially insanely effective. If COVID had stopped mutating and we got 90% of people vaccinated, it would have certainly been eradicated entirely.

It wasn't like this suddenly stopped being true, the vaccine got less and less effective against stopping infection outright, and thus less impactful at stopping spread.

Maybe you disagree about the spot on that gradient that was the right time to change the messaging, but it wouldn't be the first time in human history where the messaging and thinking lagged the current facts on an issue.

Did anyone actually think this? Like seriously think that a highly contagious airborne respiratory virus would stop mutating?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

The reason this annoys the hell out of me is because I don't know a SINGLE person, or even heard of anyone within my circle of friends & family, or even business associates, their circle or literally anyone I have ever even talked about vaccines with, who has had an adverse reaction to the standard vaccines that they got as children. Literally not a single person.

So when I approached COVID vaccination, and when many of those people approached COVID vaccination, we all approached it from the same perspective as other vaccines. As per public health authorities, very safe, and risk of any issues is 'less worse than getting COVID'. And like everyone else, I had countless discussions, and read countless conversations on places like CP and elsewhere, and the consensus among all those people was a very dogmatic 'better get vaccinated or we all think you're a loony toon' approach. Even in the last 10 posts, opendoor, whom many on here thought actually knew something about vaccination has now TWICE said that he supports private companies having a forced vaccination policy because 'it weeds out the whackos.' Has nothing to do with people having a reason to be vaccinated or not, or possible health effects, risk factor, being an expectant mother, or anything like that.

Just a narrow minded if you are not vaccinated = you are a whacko.


Also, within that same circle of people I was talking about above there are a couple friends that have what the doctors are calling a lifelong heart issue as a result of the vaccination. On top of that, these people would fall into the group that was not at risk.

Turns out the risks to the vaccines were higher than originally stated.

Information that wasn't presented to people properly.

But still, in 2023 there is support for the idea that if you are STILL not vaccinated = your are a whacko.

Also don't forget 'most people have moved on.'

Hilariously pathetic to read.

Citation ####ing needed. I find this highly dubious, given what we know about the vaccine and the virus, and you are far more likely to have heart issues from an infection than the vaccine.

The facts are and remain, if you didn't get vaccinated during the Delta wave, you made a the wrong decision informed by misinformation and your choice to follow dubious sources, and "weeding out the whackos" is a valid explanation.

[shotinthebacklund]

Most people have moved on, so there is no need to acknowledge we as a populace were lied to and coerced into taking a jab that was far from as reported and approved. Has long lasting and severe consequences for a growing list of people. Follow the science right? Protect grandma?

I know several people in my personal life that have diagnosed vaccine complications including my wife. A frontline nurse who took this vaccine to "keep everyone safe". I had diagnosed Myocarditis on day 6 after my "vaccine" I followed this trail of lies and trusted those in positions now as I always have that they were looking out for our best interest. Day by Day as the evidence grows I feel ashamed I trusted the system. Was there a application of this vaccine? Yes, in certain demographics there is. Is it young children and healthy young adults, not a chance. You can probably tell I am angry, hell yes im angry. This whole think stinks to high hell and there needs to be answers.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

Most people have moved on, so there is no need to acknowledge we as a populace were lied to and coerced into taking a jab that was far from as reported and approved. Has long lasting and severe consequences for a growing list of people. Follow the science right? Protect grandma?

I know several people in my personal life that have diagnosed vaccine complications including my wife. A frontline nurse who took this vaccine to "keep everyone safe". I had diagnosed Myocarditis on day 6 after my "vaccine" I followed this trail of lies and trusted those in positions now as I always have that they were looking out for our best interest. Day by Day as the evidence grows I feel ashamed I trusted the system. Was there a application of this vaccine? Yes, in certain demographics there is. Is it young children and healthy young adults, not a chance. You can probably tell I am angry, hell yes im angry. This whole think stinks to high hell and there needs to be answers.

No you're wrong. According to Fuzz, even despite the fact that it is acknowledged that Myocarditis can develop as a result of the vaccinations, what you are saying is still 'highly dubious.'

See what I mean? I was literally vaccinated way before there were mandates or a Delta wave, and like with all my other vaccinations, or even all the other people I know who were vaccinated, I didn't for a second thinking that I'd have similar aged friends who would develop a HEART CONDITION from the vaccination. So now when I say it was a stupid idea to tell healthy adults with no pre existing conditions to get vaccinated if there is a risk of Myocarditis, you get the same dogmatic bull#### that we saw the past 2 years.

"Highly dubious" that it could happen. Like a giant screw you to the people who now have to deal with it. Unreal. But hey, as long as people can sit over on one side and condemn all those unvaccinated whackos.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Weird that the people convinced vaccines are were pointless and COVID is whatever are the ones still obsessively going on about it.

It also funny how those people all eem to know dozens of people with significant lifelong complications from being vaccinated. I don't know a single person who had any side effects that lasted more than a few weeks.

Whereas I do know (not that well, but friends of friends) 2 people under 40 who died from COVID and another U40 person who had a heart attack not too long after getting COVID (and he's an antivaxxer so it certainly wasn't vaccine-related).

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky. But the data and safety signals from around the world seem to agree with my experience.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

I had diagnosed Myocarditis on day 6 after my "vaccine" I followed this trail of lies and trusted those in positions now as I always have that they were looking out for our best interest. Day by Day as the evidence grows I feel ashamed I trusted the system. Was there a application of this vaccine? Yes, in certain demographics there is. Is it young children and healthy young adults, not a chance. You can probably tell I am angry, hell yes im angry. This whole think stinks to high hell and there needs to be answers.

Didn't you get Myocarditis from COVID? But now you're blaming the vaccine?

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

I contracted Covid in may of this year ( before eligible for vaccine) It was a rough experience, I had mild myocardititis post covid as was instructed to keep a eye on it by my MD.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

No you're wrong. According to Fuzz, even despite the fact that it is acknowledged that Myocarditis can develop as a result of the vaccinations, what you are saying is still 'highly dubious.'

See what I mean? I was literally vaccinated way before there were mandates or a Delta wave, and like with all my other vaccinations, or even all the other people I know who were vaccinated, I didn't for a second thinking that I'd have similar aged friends who would develop a HEART CONDITION from the vaccination. So now when I say it was a stupid idea to tell healthy adults with no pre existing conditions to get vaccinated if there is a risk of Myocarditis, you get the same dogmatic bull#### that we saw the past 2 years.

"Highly dubious" that it could happen. Like a giant screw you to the people who now have to deal with it. Unreal. But hey, as long as people can sit over on one side and condemn all those unvaccinated whackos.

Sure, that's a valid thing to rage about, if you misrepresent what I said.

Conclusion: In this systematic review and meta-analysis, we found that the risk of myocarditis is more than seven fold higher in persons who were infected with the SARS-CoV-2 than in those who received the vaccine. These findings support the continued use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines among all eligible persons per CDC and WHO recommendations.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-1...ocarditis.html

The odds of knowing a couple people who are have lifelong heart issues conclusively caused by the vaccine vs covid, which most people have also had, is why I say it is dubious. Is it possible? Sure, I guess, but there are much much greater odds you'd know several people with covid induced myocarditis, which makes me question what you are saying.

141 cases within 21 days (1.37 cases per 100 000 vaccine doses

Vaccine induced
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/194/45/E1529

And that's all cases, not "lifelong". The odds of knowing 2 people? Pretty slim. This should be common knowledge by now.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by opendoor

It also funny how those people all eem to know dozens of people with significant lifelong complications from being vaccinated. I don't know a single person who had any side effects that lasted more than a few weeks.

Whereas I do know (not that well, but friends of friends) 2 people under 40 who died from COVID and another U40 person who had a heart attack not too long after getting COVID (and he's an antivaxxer so it certainly wasn't vaccine-related).

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky. But the data and safety signals from around the world seem to agree with my experience.

Ya, but if you get your information from dubious Twitter sources and algorithm fed Youtube channels, you'll have a totally different view. It's interesting seeing who has poor media literacy simply by what they post here.

[activeStick]

Relevant

https://twitter.com/user/status/1632971238623641600

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's funny(depressing) watching all these people that were wrong before suddenly pop back up and pretend they were right, ignoring all the facts along the way, then coming to the most brain dead incorrect conclusions they can muster. The sad part is they manage to convince people who aren't really paying attention that their revisionist summary of the past is reality, and we made massive mistakes along the way. This is going to make managing future pandemics incredibly difficult, and these moons will have real deaths on their hands. So keep it up, dummies. Maybe it'll be someone you love next time.

This is not fair. Some of these dummies have gone on to full time protesting events at libraries.

[shotinthebacklund]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Didn't you get Myocarditis from COVID? But now you're blaming the vaccine?

Correct, i did say that. I contracted delta 14ish days pre covid vaccine booking date. On the advise of my dr, I received my vaccine as scheduled. On day 6 post vaccination I started having chest irritation. I was advised to keep a eye on it and it did eventually go away. Given the information at hand, i associated it to the infection. My second dose came along and this time was very ill for several days. Very high fever, vomiting, horrible body aches and a few days later, the return of the chest pains, this time worse. I did not speak here about my concerns for the exact reason we see the types of recent posts here. Since i had spoken on this topic, things in my life have taken a turn because of this vaccine. My wife received her booster, that night, her heart rate hit 173 bpm and we took her to the hospital. Drugs for a suspected allergic reaction, did zero. Her period was 4 days late that month, followed by extremely heavy bleeding. It looks now like she will be needing a hysterectomy as she has become imimic due to continued heavy bleeding.
My brother and his wife suddenly miscarried their child after 5.5 months 16 hrs after her booster. A healthy pregnancy and ultrasound the day before vaccination.
This is very personal, and did not want to share this, especially here amongst users who can be extremely demeaning and disrespectful
If you look, I was cautious about the vaccine. Chose not to vaccinate my children (and was attacked for it) and was critical of suppression of data regarding treatment options (specifically vit d )
Frankly, i dont give a crap about this community any longer. Take my experience and do what you will with it. I know zero people who were even hospitalized or even severely ill, I was likely sickest of anyone I know, even my 102 yr old grandmother shrugged it off. Sorry to all those who lost loved ones or friends. It is not my experience. My experience is one of harms done from something that was meant to help.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, that's a valid thing to rage about, if you misrepresent what I said.


https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-1...ocarditis.html

The odds of knowing a couple people who are have lifelong heart issues conclusively caused by the vaccine vs covid, which most people have also had, is why I say it is dubious. Is it possible? Sure, I guess, but there are much much greater odds you'd know several people with covid induced myocarditis, which makes me question what you are saying.

Vaccine induced
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/194/45/E1529

And that's all cases, not "lifelong". The odds of knowing 2 people? Pretty slim. This should be common knowledge by now.

“Dubious”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35993236/

Conclusions: Overall, the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination and remains modest after sequential doses including a booster dose of BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. However, the risk of myocarditis after vaccination is higher in younger men, particularly after a second dose of the mRNA-1273 vaccine.

To be clear, there are multiple studies that say this. Dubious indeed. And curious to see what multiple boosters after boosters do as well to healthy young males. Not lots of data on that yet.

[opendoor]

Just to put that study's numbers in context: that puts the excess myocarditis cases from the vaccines in U40 men at around 15 (Pfizer) and 110 (Moderna) per million over a 2-dose series. So that's between 1 in 9,000 and 1 in 66,000. That's not particularly high; it's about on par with the odds that a 30 year old has of dropping dead in the next 7 days.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Just to put that study's numbers in context: that puts the excess myocarditis cases from the vaccines in U40 men at around 15 (Pfizer) and 110 (Moderna) per million over a 2-dose series. So that's between 1 in 9,000 and 1 in 66,000. That's not particularly high; it's about on par with the odds that a 30 year old has of dropping dead in the next 7 days.

Not so different than an unvaccinated, healthy male under 40 having a severe outcome from COVID itself. Or kids.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by ikaris

Not so different than an unvaccinated, healthy male under 40 having a severe outcome from COVID itself. Or kids.

Not even close. About 1 in 300 unvaccinated 30-39 year olds and 1 in 500 12-29 year olds were hospitalized in Alberta just in the first 4 months of 2022, and over 60% of those hospitalized in those age groups had no pre-existing conditions.

At about 2,000 hospitalizations per million among healthy 12-39 year olds (depending on what % of the population has pre-existing conditions) over just a 4-month period, I don't know that I'd put it as "not so different" than the 15 extra myocarditis cases per million from 2 doses of Pfizer (which was the recommended vaccine for younger people). The hospitalization risk is about 130x higher based on that data.

[GGG]

Shotinback, that is really sad that you are having these heath experiences regardless of their causes.

If the vaccine is causing the consequences you faced it will be found. Even if the vaccine is found to have caused these things you still made the right decision to be vaccinated.

The risks of taking the vaccine were lower than the risks of getting Covid without the vaccine. You are not to blame if you rolled unlucky on the vaccine lottery. You still reduced your overall risk.

It’s funny people like Ikaris act like anything has changed. The best decision available at the time was to vaccinate. The math overwhelming supported it. Data available at that time was not suppressed.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Not even close. About 1 in 300 unvaccinated 30-39 year olds and 1 in 500 12-29 year olds were hospitalized in Alberta just in the first 4 months of 2022, and over 60% of those hospitalized in those age groups had no pre-existing conditions.

At about 2,000 hospitalizations per million among healthy 12-39 year olds (depending on what % of the population has pre-existing conditions) over just a 4-month period, I don't know that I'd put it as "not so different" than the 15 extra myocarditis cases per million from 2 doses of Pfizer (which was the recommended vaccine for younger people). The hospitalization risk is about 130x higher based on that data.

I appreciate this clarification but I couldn’t find any more recent data in Alberta. How’re hospitalizations from COVID in these age groups since 2023?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by ikaris

I appreciate this clarification but I couldn’t find any more recent data in Alberta. How’re hospitalizations from COVID in these age groups since 2023?

Relatively low. Alberta doesn't publish data by age and date anymore, but if you look at archived data you can compare the totals between two points for each age group.

So since October 1st (basically normal respiratory virus season start), there have been 84 hospitalizations among 20-29 year olds and 131 among 30-39 year olds, and some of those would be incidental cases (not the cause of the hospitalization).

The same period in 2021-22 saw 511 hospitalizations among 20-29 year olds and 792 among 30-39 year olds. So there has been a significant (almost 85%) reduction due to more widespread and hybrid immunity, as well as Omicron's lower severity.

For most of the non at-risk population, COVID is probably at a similar risk level as influenza in terms of severe outcomes. Though it does transmit more, which makes COVID more of an issue (the average adult only gets the flu once every 5 years or so). However, older adults or anyone with comorbidities that put them at risk should continue to get vaccinated regularly if they haven't had an infection recently. And that's NACi's current guidance for boosters (65+ or 18+ who are at risk if it has been 6+ months since last dose or infection).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, that's a valid thing to rage about, if you misrepresent what I said.


https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-1...ocarditis.html

The odds of knowing a couple people who are have lifelong heart issues conclusively caused by the vaccine vs covid, which most people have also had, is why I say it is dubious. Is it possible? Sure, I guess, but there are much much greater odds you'd know several people with covid induced myocarditis, which makes me question what you are saying.

Vaccine induced
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/194/45/E1529

And that's all cases, not "lifelong". The odds of knowing 2 people? Pretty slim. This should be common knowledge by now.

You don't get it.

Infection from COVID by the time the vaccines came around was as foregone conclusion. Most of us never had a choice there, especially if we couldn't sit around at home and play twiddle twaddle all day long.

But yeah, break it down to a 'couple' people.