I am a little disappointing that while the case of George Floyd's death resonated so much in Canada and caused protests, there is very limited coverage or anger over the fact that a 62 year old man, apparently with schizophrenia, has been shot by the police. This has just been brushed under the rug. This is another example of police incompetence in handling situations properly.
On another news website, I read a comment on this story which was something like "the cops have families too and they'd like to get back to them after work instead of getting killed"... And it struck a cord.
It made me think that maybe some cops like finding shortcuts, and they are fearful. Police needs to be held at a higher standard when it comes to mental fortitude: In dangerous situations, a cop should not be thinking "what if I die today and not be able to see my kids... lets just shoot the guy 6 times". They need a better mental composure than this, and they can't just justify their actions just because the guy had a knife. This has to be addressed when (if) there is some type of overhaul in training and procedures to deal with mental health patients. The police throws their own employees under the bus when they experience PTSD issues, so I don't expect them to care much about mental health of others.
That 62 years old frail man was a having a en episode of schizophrenia and was apparently threatening to kill himself. He had barricaded himself inside. The disgusting humans dressed in police uniforms kicked down his balcony and shot him 6 times.
This is the second time someone has died during "wellness-check". While us Canadian protest about issues originating in USA, it would be nice if we were as passionate about what is happening in our own country.
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I'm not seeing the connection here to the Floyd death as the incidents are completely different and the video isn't evidence on it's own of wrongdoing. We should probably wait for the completion of the investigation before directing our outrage to this story.
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Once police entered the apartment unit, "an interaction occurred which included officers deploying a conducted energy weapon at the man, as well as firing plastic projectiles from an Anti-Riot Weapon ENfield," the SIU release said.
"When these had no effect, an officer discharged a firearm and the man was struck."
I can't say for sure if it was excessive but they didn't go in guns a blazing. This article simply doesn't have enough information to draw any conclusion even if it appears you already have.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 06-22-2020 at 01:13 PM.
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I'm not seeing the connection here to the Floyd death as the incidents are completely different and the video isn't evidence on it's own of wrongdoing. We should probably wait for the completion of the investigation before directing our outrage to this story.
The comparison is the unfair actions by the police. Yes, its good to wait for the investigation, but I think it deserves more than just a SIU investigation. The indigenous woman Chantel Moore died during a wellness check over 2 weeks ago, and there are also calls for bigger national level independent investigation about her death because nothing else is being done.
I only mentioned Floyd death because no one seems to want to do major protests when it comes to how mental health patients are treated in Canada.
Edit: They definitely went in guns blazing. There is a video of it. And besides, during wellness checks, there is a separate department that handles it, the police has no place to even be there.
Last edited by JeanLucPicard; 06-22-2020 at 01:20 PM.
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This sounds like one of about two dozen cases where a schizophrenic person encounters police every year, and in most cases, the individual is tased and subdued, and thereby continues living. Unfortunately, it sounds like in this case the taser didn't work.
I seem to recall a mental health intervenor making this point during the Robert Dziekanski matter - i.e, that tasers save the lives of mentally ill people because they can't reasonably be talked down, and would otherwise have to be shot.
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How do you know its unfair? Again, like the last thread, if a person comes at police with a knife it is going to be met with lethal means. I'm sorry they didn't have 60 shields to go and jump on him inside of the suite.
Further, those whole "wellness check" needs to be addressed. Police were called to do a wellness check but that's where this ends. If the man has a knife it's now a weapons call. The wellness check at that point is over with. And beyond that we don't know anything else. Well, jeanlucpicard seems to know more I guess.
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The comparison is the unfair actions by the police. Yes, its good to wait for the investigation, but I think it deserves more than just a SIU investigation. The indigenous woman Chantel Moore died during a wellness check over 2 weeks ago, and there are also calls for bigger national level independent investigation about her death because nothing else is being done.
I only mentioned Floyd death because no one seems to want to do major protests when it comes to how mental health patients are treated in Canada.
Edit: They definitely went in guns blazing. There is a video of it. And besides, during wellness checks, there is a separate department that handles it, the police has no place to even be there.
If the taser didn't work and the guy had a knife, it didn't look like they had a lot of choice. Looks like they were kind of trapped on a balcony with no place to safely retreat.
We've all seen a lot of videos of police acting inappropriately. This video doesn't look like a clear case of that since we can't even see the guy they killed, but we can see the police had nowhere to go if he was indeed coming toward them with a knife.
If the taser didn't work and the guy had a knife, it didn't look like they had a lot of choice. Looks like they were kind of trapped on a balcony with no place to safely retreat.
We've all seen a lot of videos of police acting inappropriately. This video doesn't look like a clear case of that since we can't even see the guy they killed, but we can see the police had nowhere to go if he was indeed coming toward them with a knife.
What would you have them do in this case?
I'm not going to say the police acted inappropriately but I will question police procedure, why did they have to do anything? he doesnt have a hostage, he's in his house, I suppose he's a danger to himself but shooting him isnt a better alternative to just leaving him in there, if you really have to go in you dont go in through the balcony, you dont go in until you have enough officers wearing enough riot gear that a 65 year old with a knife isnt actually a threat, prison officers and high secure mental health staff disarm knife wielding patients and prisoners all the time, there's a technique for it they train for, perhaps the answer is to call up the local prison and ask for some help training
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If the taser didn't work and the guy had a knife, it didn't look like they had a lot of choice. Looks like they were kind of trapped on a balcony with no place to safely retreat.
We've all seen a lot of videos of police acting inappropriately. This video doesn't look like a clear case of that since we can't even see the guy they killed, but we can see the police had nowhere to go if he was indeed coming toward them with a knife.
What would you have them do in this case?
First of all, they could be not stupid enough to get into a situation where they're left with the option of killing the person. If you are doing a wellness check, what is the urgency to get inside the apartment where the only threat is that the man may take his own life? No one else is around.
I am not an expert to deal with this but there could be more waiting and patience by the police since the guy was inside the house and not a threat to anyone. Waiting for an entire day to calm the situation is still better than killing the person.
They could also ask for assistance from the people who are actually capable and trained to handle and deescalate situations involving mental patients. A schizophrenic guy isn't exactly going to calm down once he sees a bunch of cops outside his door and balcony. Again, lack of proper training and strategy for specific scenarios.
And secondly, we have to expect the police to be able to use their guns in a manner than don't kill someone. Have better protective equipment, be prepared to physically control a 62 year old weak man with a knife; If you've to use a gun, use it on the legs instead of having no brain and shot directly at the body multiple times.
We have to expect more from police. If you were in that situation, I would understand if you took same actions. Police needs to be able to do a lot more, and even put themselves in danger to save the other life. Its the hard and risky route to take for a cop, but it is still better than killing someone.
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If he was alone in his apartment, why did the police need to break their way in at all?
IIRC the family called the police concerned he had access to weapons (knives?) and was likely to hurt himself. The kicker was he couldn't speak English either so they could not communicate with him.
I think what needs to happen is the police need to be told/trained that not everything can or should be solved in the first few minutes with the first 2 or 3 officers that happen to rock up on the scene using the limited tools they might have, that if they wait a few more minutes until the mental health van with the nurse, social worker and shields helmets and stab proof body armour arrives a far less lethal outcome is likely
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And secondly, we have to expect the police to be able to use their guns in a manner than don't kill someone. Have better protective equipment, be prepared to physically control a 62 year old weak man with a knife; If you've to use a gun, use it on the legs instead of having no brain and shot directly at the body multiple times.
I don't mind most of your post - particularly about waiting for someone with the appropriate training to attend the scene - but this part is just silly. It's not a video game. It's very difficult to shoot someone in the leg. It's even more difficult when the person is moving. It's even more difficult when they're moving toward you and you're backing up. It's more difficult still when you have adrenaline pumping, because human beings under pressure are not designed to make precision movements in those situations. Now you have one, maybe two, chances. Combine all of that with the fact that a leg shot is often just as dangerous as a shot to the chest (you can either hit the femoral artery, or hit the femur, causing bone / bullet fragments to lacerate the artery, either way you're bleeding to death more quickly than you would if you were struck in, say, your gut, or your lung) so the incremental benefit of even a successful attempt at this much more difficult shot is questionable. Then combine that with the fact that if you miss - and for the reasons above, you probably will - that bullet can easily travel through the wall of the apartment into the brain of the 10 year old who lives next door. Center mass minimizes that risk.
Again, the question, "why did they go in at all in these circumstances" is a reasonable thing to ask. But "just shoot him in the leg, he only has a knife" when these stories come up is a response that needs to be retired from the repertoire.
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The comparison is the unfair actions by the police. Yes, its good to wait for the investigation, but I think it deserves more than just a SIU investigation. The indigenous woman Chantel Moore died during a wellness check over 2 weeks ago, and there are also calls for bigger national level independent investigation about her death because nothing else is being done.
I only mentioned Floyd death because no one seems to want to do major protests when it comes to how mental health patients are treated in Canada.
Edit: They definitely went in guns blazing. There is a video of it. And besides, during wellness checks, there is a separate department that handles it, the police has no place to even be there.
The BEI is investigating the Chatel Moore case, "nothing else is being done" is just untrue. There is no investigative unit in New Brunswick that can do the investigation, so it's done by an out of province unit.
As for the Choudry case, it was actually the paramedics who showed up first, not the police. They were called by the paramedics who can't go into a situation with an armed subject. Then they used two less than lethal methods to try and end the situation before using lethal force.
Oddly enough, the use of less than lethal force has been the first step in pretty much each of the incidents as of late. Something that is often left out by people upset with the use of lethal force.
Quote:
And secondly, we have to expect the police to be able to use their guns in a manner than don't kill someone. Have better protective equipment, be prepared to physically control a 62 year old weak man with a knife; If you've to use a gun, use it on the legs instead of having no brain and shot directly at the body multiple times.
This is just foolish. The obvious issues with trying to hit a small target and still minimize risk downrange, how effective do you actually think that a leg shot or arm shot is going to be when stopping a threat? Police engage to stop a threat (they don't shoot to kill), the fastest and safest way is center mass. Highest chance of actually hitting the target and highest chance of shots ending the threat.
Last edited by llwhiteoutll; 06-22-2020 at 01:53 PM.
As soon as I saw the article, a few items immediately came to mind that have been mentioned more and more as this discussion around overuse and overreach of the police has continued.
And the article slapped those down quickly. (Article snippets in italics.)
1. Why are we even having armed police attend what should be a medical or social worker task?
2. Why aren't they using less-lethal means?
Answer to #1: The victim's eldest daughter initially called a non-emergency ambulance on Saturday evening because her father was having an "episode," according to Khizar Shahzad, who is also a nephew of the victim.
Once paramedics arrived, they saw that the victim had a knife and called police, Shahzad said.
Answer to #2: Once police entered the apartment unit, "an interaction occurred which included officers deploying a conducted energy weapon at the man, as well as firing plastic projectiles from an Anti-Riot Weapon ENfield," the SIU release said.
"When these had no effect, an officer discharged a firearm and the man was struck."
3. Okay, but maybe this was escalated as a result of the man being afraid of uniformed officers. From the article: "I said, 'Hey, he's scared of your uniform, he's not scared of you,'" he recalled telling the officer.
Answer to #3. If it was the man being scared of the police uniform, why did the medical first-responders feel threatened enough to engage police?
On one hand, it sounds like police were put in a difficult position and they were certainly not the first point of contact for this. On the other, what other possibilities are there that this could have been mitigated? Try a second hit from a taser? Rely on body armor and attempt to disarm the man in close quarters?
First of all, they could be not stupid enough to get into a situation where they're left with the option of killing the person. If you are doing a wellness check, what is the urgency to get inside the apartment where the only threat is that the man may take his own life? No one else is around.
I am not an expert to deal with this but there could be more waiting and patience by the police since the guy was inside the house and not a threat to anyone. Waiting for an entire day to calm the situation is still better than killing the person.
They could also ask for assistance from the people who are actually capable and trained to handle and deescalate situations involving mental patients. A schizophrenic guy isn't exactly going to calm down once he sees a bunch of cops outside his door and balcony. Again, lack of proper training and strategy for specific scenarios.
And secondly, we have to expect the police to be able to use their guns in a manner than don't kill someone. Have better protective equipment, be prepared to physically control a 62 year old weak man with a knife; If you've to use a gun, use it on the legs instead of having no brain and shot directly at the body multiple times.
We have to expect more from police. If you were in that situation, I would understand if you took same actions. Police needs to be able to do a lot more, and even put themselves in danger to save the other life. Its the hard and risky route to take for a cop, but it is still better than killing someone.
I agree we need to expect more from the police. I like that there is a potential for change coming to policing.
I'm just saying there are too many unknowns in this video that it doesn't do a good job of illustrating your point. We don't know what was going on in the apartment. We don't know why they scaled a balcony versus coming in the front door. We don't know what happened with the taser (did it malfunction? did it hit him but he didn't react? did they even use it?). We can't see half of what's going on.
I don't know how you can draw so many conclusions from this video. I'm not able to see what you're seeing here.
I'm not going to say the police acted inappropriately but I will question police procedure, why did they have to do anything? he doesnt have a hostage, he's in his house, I suppose he's a danger to himself but shooting him isnt a better alternative to just leaving him in there, if you really have to go in you dont go in through the balcony, you dont go in until you have enough officers wearing enough riot gear that a 65 year old with a knife isnt actually a threat, prison officers and high secure mental health staff disarm knife wielding patients and prisoners all the time, there's a technique for it they train for, perhaps the answer is to call up the local prison and ask for some help training
I think your questions have pretty basic answers.
Why did they have to do anything?
Emergency services were called there by his family. Isn't it their responsibility at that point to check in on him to make sure he's okay? A guy flapping around with a knife isn't really okay.
I suppose he's a danger to himself but shooting him isnt a better alternative to just leaving him in there
Yeah, but I doubt they went in there with the goal of shooting him. A guy having a major mental health crisis and a weapon will likely need to be subdued. Things escalated. They tried non-lethal weapons on him by the sounds of things, then shot him when those didn't work and he was still coming at them.
Maybe they will end up getting training on how to handle things like this better in the future. But when cops are being attacked by a guy with a knife in close quarters, that is kinda the type of situation where it's not completely bananas for them to use their guns.
Last edited by Sliver; 06-22-2020 at 02:15 PM.
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I know the outrage culture is currently pointed squarely at people in uniform but we have to realize that there are always going to be instances where the authorities have to use force and possibly take the life of a civilian. Hopefully going forward there will more fair and thorough investigations conducted for each instance but we simply can't start degenerating into calling the authorities "disgusting humans dressed in police uniforms" every time something happens like this where there aren't even any conclusions drawn by the investigation.
I know the outrage culture is currently pointed squarely at people in uniform but we have to realize that there are always going to be instances where the authorities have to use force and possibly take the life of a civilian. Hopefully going forward there will more fair and thorough investigations conducted for each instance but we simply can't start degenerating into calling the authorities "disgusting humans dressed in police uniforms" every time something happens like this where there aren't even any conclusions drawn by the investigation.
Yes it sounds harsh, but I never use those words every time police shoots someone. Its always about specific situations. My frustration is more about this situation escalating in the wrong direction.
What if this attitude of "there are always going to be instances where the authorities have to use force and possibly take the life of a civilian" from many people in the society is what probably emboldens the police to pile up unfair acts here and there, without consequences? And then only when something outrageous is caught on camera, the people start protesting.
Statistically, I agree with you, it will happen again, but when we see it happen, I think we should say a little more than simple assuming that nothing else could be done. we have to be harsh, because this profession demands detailed scrutiny and consequences.
Look I support the current investigations happening for this case and the previous one, but I think its definitely a sign that the police is incompetent in many areas.
Another wellness-check police shooting in Canada
