Sean Monahan’s biggest offseason

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Yeah, fair, Tkachuk is genuinely dangerous.



Yes, I am leaning hard here, and perhaps ridiculously so, although if that's the case it's not intentional.





The Flames had a great season. Moreso, they did it on top of a goaltending performance that was... well, kinda awful early one. We were all happy to play the Avs (instead of a team like Dallas, for example, who have successfully stifled the Flames for years). And then got trampled. Absolutely trampled. And you can say it was overtime, and you can say it was a post away or whatever, but the truth is, big picture, the Flames had no answer for a fast, hard-nosed game. They were shell-shocked, as a group.



Monahan's part in this is that he did nothing in the playoffs. He got a goal from the slot. Woo. I thought his play after the break was half-hearted (actually I was convinced he was injured). Same in the playoffs- watching him actively avoid hits, failing to engage in battles... I'm watching him thinking "This guy doesn't like hockey." James Neal played the same game. Perimeter game, waiting for the puck, or ... something.



So I'm stuck at "This guy has a knack for popping in shots from 3 feet out." That's not trivial. 30 goals. But he doesn't have a knack for back checking, doesn't have a knack for getting to deep pucks first, doesn't have a knack for knocking snot out of people.... like, there's a long list of stuff he really should be better at, no?

I have been pretty vocal of Monahan past years, he did prove me wrong at times (great goalscorer), but he is exactly what I said he is 3 years ago. No passion, no drive, just floating and whipping the puck to the direction of team mates and hoping for the best, mostly. I am disappointed, because I wanted him to prove me wrong, he just hasnt.

Lähetetty minun NEM-L21 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Mayo

Monahan has shown extended glimpses of being a great two way center. I think he has the potential to be a great player.

What I really want to know is what happened to Nathan Mackinnon in the summer of 2017? Did Crosby take him to the Cole Harbour fountain of hockey greatness?

Whatever it is, we need to get Monahan on a similar program.

Mackinnon pts per season:

2014:63
2015: 38
2016: 52
2017: 53
2018: 97 (74 gms)
2019: 99

Young players often take a few years to break out. This is normal and expected.

It’s the players who step in and dominate right away that are the exceptions.

[SilverKast]

I was super excited when we drafted him, I thought he was exactly what we needed with the potential for a great two way, big center who would be an anchor for us up the middle. He's provided a lot more scoring than I ever thought he would, but that's really about it.

I can't believe how little he shows physically though. For a guy with his size, who played lacrosse, he sure plays a soft game. Hopefully he comes around and develops a mild mean streak. If he could just play a little bit more physical and develop a stronger defensive game he'd be exactly what I had expected when we drafted him

I suppose there's still time for him to put it together like that, otherwise he's just going to stay as is. I mean, a 30 goal center is still great to have, but he has all the tools to be more than just a cream puff goal scorer.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Yeah, fair, Tkachuk is genuinely dangerous.

Yes, I am leaning hard here, and perhaps ridiculously so, although if that's the case it's not intentional.


The Flames had a great season. Moreso, they did it on top of a goaltending performance that was... well, kinda awful early one. We were all happy to play the Avs (instead of a team like Dallas, for example, who have successfully stifled the Flames for years). And then got trampled. Absolutely trampled. And you can say it was overtime, and you can say it was a post away or whatever, but the truth is, big picture, the Flames had no answer for a fast, hard-nosed game. They were shell-shocked, as a group.

Monahan's part in this is that he did nothing in the playoffs. He got a goal from the slot. Woo. I thought his play after the break was half-hearted (actually I was convinced he was injured). Same in the playoffs- watching him actively avoid hits, failing to engage in battles... I'm watching him thinking "This guy doesn't like hockey." James Neal played the same game. Perimeter game, waiting for the puck, or ... something.

So I'm stuck at "This guy has a knack for popping in shots from 3 feet out." That's not trivial. 30 goals. But he doesn't have a knack for back checking, doesn't have a knack for getting to deep pucks first, doesn't have a knack for knocking snot out of people.... like, there's a long list of stuff he really should be better at, no?

You're definitely leaning hard here, but I find it harder and harder to argue against with Monahan. Why do we as fans expect players like Johnny (turnovers) and Bennett (stone hands) to improve aspects of their game but for some reason think it's fine for Monahan to just be what he is?

He's handsomely compensated to be one of the best in the league and if he can't train in the offseason and start evolving his play into what this team needs, he isn't worth the material his name is written on. He plays with one of the most skilled players in the league - he should be eating this up, squeezing every ounce out of his potential and I just don't see it. Many players would kill for the role he's carved out with the Flames.

Monahan has been abysmal in the playoffs for too long. Yes he scored 4 goals against Anaheim 2 years ago, but it was the same terrible, uninspired play that we saw this year for the most part. I would rather he gets 0 points if he actually plays hard at both ends and shows a will to win. Without a clear change in approach, it will just be more of the same cream puff hockey that real players eat up from him the next time around, most likely with a similar result.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SilverKast

...I mean, a 30 goal center is still great to have, but he has all the tools to be more than just a cream puff goal scorer.

Which is exactly why I find it a little silly that so many are ready to give up on him following a disappointing playoff performance. Monahan has not been a consistently dominant line driver over the course of his career, but he certainly has shown this ability in prodigious stretches—even this season.

I still believe he is going to put it all together, and I remain confident that the team can in fact succeed and win a championship with him centring the top line. So much of the resigned acceptance of his supposedly limited skill and passivity is exaggerated by the two-week playoff window in which the Flames, and their top players played about as poorly as they had all season long.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Which is exactly why I find it a little silly that so many are ready to give up on him following a disappointing playoff performance. Monahan has not been a consistently dominant line driver over the course of his career, but he certainly has shown this ability in prodigious stretches—even this season.

I still believe he is going to put it all together, and I remain confident that the team can in fact succeed and win a championship with him centring the top line. So much of the resigned acceptance of his supposedly limited skill and passivity is exaggerated by the two-week playoff window in which the Flames, and their top players played about as poorly as they had all season long.

How much of that is on Monahan though?

Certainly a large part of it would be his lackluster effort and unwillingness to get greasy when things aren't going well. You're certainly not asking Guadreau to go out there and do that.

All playoffs this year, I've watched players you might hold in a similar regard to Monahan step up and rise to the occasion for their teams. So far, all Monahan does is wilt like a sick houseplant unless it's watered on a daily basis.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You're definitely leaning hard here, but I find it harder and harder to argue against with Monahan. Why do we as fans expect players like Johnny (turnovers) and Bennett (stone hands) to improve aspects of their game but for some reason think it's fine for Monahan to just be what he is?...

You are taking about different things—I, for one, don't accept that Monahan is fine playing the way he has; I merely believe that he will be a lot better more consistently in the future, because he has shown so many flashes of this for long stretches throughout his career.

Monahan has been abysmal in the playoffs for too long. Yes he scored 4 goals against Anaheim 2 years ago, but it was the same terrible, uninspired play that we saw this year for the most part. I would rather he gets 0 points if he actually plays hard at both ends and shows a will to win. Without a clear change in approach, it will just be more of the same cream puff hockey from him the next time around, most likely with a similar result.

This is a revisionist view of things. Monahan had a very poor showing in the playoffs THIS YEAR, and I believe that has unfairly coloured peoples' memories about him from the past few years. I rather recall that in 2017 the team was competitive in all three of their first games against Anaheim, could easily have one any one of them, and were let down by exceptionally poor goaltending. Monahan and Sam Bennett were the best Flames forwards in that series. Period. They probably would have looked even better or achieved better results if any one else of the forward group had bothered to show up in those games.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

How much of that is on Monahan though?

Certainly a large part of it would be his lackluster effort and unwillingness to get greasy when things aren't going well. You're certainly not asking Guadreau to go out there and do that.

Plenty of the Flames's playoff disappointment is on Monahan—I have already conceded that he played poorly. My primary point is that I feel this bad performance—compounded by his play down the stretch—is not likely indicative of Monahan's ceiling as a player. I remain confident that he can and will be better than he was for two weeks in April.

All playoffs this year, I've watched players you might hold in a similar regard to Monahan step up and rise to the occasion for their teams. So far, all Monahan does is wilt like a sick houseplant unless it's watered on a daily basis.

Nope. It happened this year, but there have been plenty of instances throughout his career in which he has risen to the occasion. I believe he will figure it out.

[bax]

Monahan is a great player.

He is a valuable contributor on a great contract.

However, he is not McDavid, Mackinnon, Crosby, or Bergeron.

The answer is to continue to build around him- keep adding good and great players.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by bax

Monahan is a great player.

He is a valuable contributor on a great contract.

However, he is not McDavid, Mackinnon, Crosby, or Bergeron.

The answer is to continue to build around him- keep adding good and great players.

Why can't he be Bergeron? It's not like Bergeron is big, supremely fast or all that talented (no more than Monahan certainly). It's all learned and the will to apply what he has learned. For the Flames to be champions, Monahan needs to try to become Bergeron (assuming all else is equal).

[bax]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Why can't he be Bergeron? It's not like Bergeron is big, supremely fast or all that talented (no more than Monahan certainly). It's all learned and the will to apply what he has learned. For the Flames to be champions, Monahan needs to try to become Bergeron (assuming all else is equal).

I mean that would be awesome, but Monahan lacks the IQ, quick stick, and awareness that Bergeron does.I hope I'm wrong, but I don't ever see Monahan reaching anything close to that defensively.

[SilverKast]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Which is exactly why I find it a little silly that so many are ready to give up on him following a disappointing playoff performance. Monahan has not been a consistently dominant line driver over the course of his career, but he certainly has shown this ability in prodigious stretches—even this season.

I still believe he is going to put it all together, and I remain confident that the team can in fact succeed and win a championship with him centring the top line. So much of the resigned acceptance of his supposedly limited skill and passivity is exaggerated by the two-week playoff window in which the Flames, and their top players played about as poorly as they had all season long.

I agree in not giving up on him, even if this is all he ever amounts to it's still the type of player any team would love to have. I just look at him and see all the tools there - he's big, strong, young and can already score. If he could just show some physicality and snarl, it's the prospect of having a player like that that's just so appealing.

I'm hoping he puts it all together like that, but I'm also starting to prepare for the fact that maybe he never does get there and this is what we get. Which is still a pretty darn good player.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by bax

I mean that would be awesome, but Monahan lacks the IQ, quick stick, and awareness that Bergeron does.I hope I'm wrong, but I don't ever see Monahan reaching anything close to that defensively.

I don't think that's accurate. I think Monahan has the IQ, stick work and awareness needed for that sort of role. However for someone to succeed in that role they need the work ethic and drive, which Monahan has not at all consistently shown over his career.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Why can't he be Bergeron? It's not like Bergeron is big, supremely fast or all that talented (no more than Monahan certainly). It's all learned and the will to apply what he has learned. For the Flames to be champions, Monahan needs to try to become Bergeron (assuming all else is equal).

Bergeron is a borderline defenseman with the way he controls the defensive/neutral zone play.

Monahan is a borderline winger with the way he resists the defensive zone/neutral zone play.

You couldn't have two players on further sides of the spectrum in terms of how they are able to manage their centre responsibilities.

We need to, at some point, acknowledge Monahan's weaknesses and identify a way to utilize his strengths without the weaknesses rearing their ugly head. Holding on to these pipe dreams of counting stats indicating an equivalency to the Toews and Bergerons and Kopitars will accomplish nothing - those guys may not be athletic freaks but they are pure centres who thrive at controlling the puck. Monahan is pretty good at reading the passing lanes, but he'll likely never take that step forward in his 200 foot game that we enter each season hoping he does. I doubt it's a coincidence Lindholm was acquired and immediately found himself as the defensive conscience on that line. Peters even alluded to Lindholm playing center next season.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I don't think that's accurate. I think Monahan has the IQ, stick work and awareness needed for that sort of role. However for someone to succeed in that role they need the work ethic and drive, which Monahan has not at all consistently shown over his career.

If it was that easy to be Bergeron, many would be.

Money has shown none of the attributes required to be a Toews/Bergeron/Kopitar type centre.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

If it was that easy to be Bergeron, many would be.

Money has shown none of the attributes required to be a Toews/Bergeron/Kopitar type centre.

You're right, not a lot of people have those skills. Monahan has elite skills and incredible vision but has been sorely missing the work ethic and drive.

[Erick Estrada]

Interesting article at the Athletic today from Kent Wilson regarding Monahan;

https://theathletic.com/962771/2019/...r-no-1-centre/

It wasn’t just the fact that Monahan’s scoring numbers cratered in the final quarter or so — his entire game fell away. His possession rate dropped to 13th amongst regular Flames forwards during this period, worst on the team. In terms of high danger and scoring for and against chance rates, only James Neal finished below Monahan. In terms of expected goals for ratio only Sam Bennett, Monahan and Neal were underwater in the final 30+ games. In contrast, eight regular Flames forwards were above the 54 percent rate by XGF during this period, which means Monahan wasn’t just struggling – he was struggling during a time where most of the team was outshooting and out-chancing the bad guys by a fairly wide margin.

Maybe there's something behind the scenes we don't know about but the team probably needs to get a good handle on how his game eroded. It's one thing to slump but to have your 1st line center be your worst possession forward is a problem that can't be ignored or treated as a fluke.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Interesting article at the Athletic today from Kent Wilson regarding Monahan;

https://theathletic.com/962771/2019/...r-no-1-centre/



Maybe there's something behind the scenes we don't know about but the team probably needs to get a good handle on how his game eroded. It's one thing to slump but to have your 1st line center be your worst possession forward is a problem that can't be ignored or treated as a fluke.

Monahan looked better under Hartley.

Hartley was fired basically right after player exit-interviews (and I believe in Johnny's contract year - Monny's too? I can't remember). But the feeling I got was a buncha players said "We hate this ####### coach."

I don't know what's going on with Monahan specifically, but I sure hate the lack of engage (exception: Travis "Broken Face" Hamonic) that this team continues to show. Hartley hockey was not about hitting, and Gulutzan hockey was... I dunno what it was... possession for the sake of it? Peters seems to have a good all around system, but Monahan did not flourish in the last half of the season when things got tighter and teams got stickier about giving up points. Will be interested to see how next year looks, in general and specific.

[Erick Estrada]

He was on pace for 44 goals and 100 points right up to the all star break so I'm not so sure it has anything to do with Hartley. According to Wilson, Monahan was the main culprit in the 1st line slumping down the stretch so the question has to be asked why? What changed? Maybe something in his personal life? I can't imagine the broken thumb was a main reason. Just so weird as plenty of top line scorers go through cold snaps where the bounces don't go their way and they lose a bit of confidence but it's pretty rare for a top line player enroute to a career season almost overnight becoming your worst forward for over 1/4 of a season and into the playoffs.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Monahan looked better under Hartley...

Monahan looked fantastic in the first half of this season.


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