[Trade] Hurricanes trade Fox to NYR for 2nd+Cond. 3rd UPD: Fox signs ELC

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The fact is, it was some of your opening points in judging that trade.

I don’t think it’s relevant, but you obviously did.

The Hull trade was different. The Flames did not lose that trade because they won the Cup. Both teams were winners.


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Well actually, by the playoff performance after the trade criterion, you could argue the Flames lost the Hull trade. The Flames were on their way to the President’s Trophy at the time of the trade, but had one of their biggest playoff stumbles in their history in the ‘88 playoffs - embarrassed and swept by the Oilers despite winning the regular season series against them. Wamsley and Ramage weren’t big factors in the ‘88 playoffs (Wamsley was injured IIRC). The Blues had a very strong playoff performance from Hull and Bozek.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

Obviously all the players create a mix that either succeeds or doesn't. Trades adjust that mix.

You also didn't answer my question.

You're right, because it was a silly question based on an extreme hyperbolic hypothetical situation. It's on the same level as asking me if I would eat the moon if it were made of ribs.

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[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

So if a trade looks great on paper, but the team bombs, it is still a good trade?

Would you trade Monahan for Greg McKegg if it guaranteed the Flames a Stanley Cup next season? Based on what you've said that would be a bad trade because on-ice success means nothing when evaluating a trade, even though I thought the whole point was to win.

Yes, undoubtedly yes.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

So if a trade looks great on paper, but the team bombs, it is still a good trade?

Would you trade Monahan for Greg McKegg if it guaranteed the Flames a Stanley Cup next season? Based on what you've said that would be a bad trade because on-ice success means nothing when evaluating a trade, even though I thought the whole point was to win.

It's all about maximizing value in trades, independent of the team.

Target specific players to create the composition of your team is asset management.

You'll never win by crossing that line (see Oiler's on the Hall trade - they might be a better team with Larsson but they could have addressed more issues than that with Hall's value).


Hypothetically, you need a blender for your kitchen.

Now, if you had $50 and you had one chance to buy a 70" TV for $30 or a blender for $30, what would you choose? - Maximizing Value

You'd also probably look to scrounge up another $10 from somewhere and buy both, or you'd look for a blender that was cheaper than $30. - Asset Management

[Bingo]

I wouldn't hold the Cane's 99 points higher based on a tougher conference.

The Flames went .844 against the Metro and .643 against the Central (the two best divisions). Combined that's .730

Carolina went .571 against the tougher divisions.

Calgary actually did the poorest against their own division only posting .586 while the Cane's feasted on the Pacific at .656

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I wouldn't hold the Cane's 99 points higher based on a tougher conference.

The Flames went .844 against the Metro and .643 against the Central (the two best divisions). Combined that's .730

Carolina went .571 against the tougher divisions.

Calgary actually did the poorest against their own division only posting .586 while the Cane's feasted on the Pacific at .656

But how a team does against a particular conference can he attributed to small sample size.

At the end of the day, the Canes had a tougher schedule, as you play more games against teams in your own division. The Flames played lots of games against the 4 worse teams in the West. That's 20% of their entire schedule. The fact that Calgary may have played poorly against their own division (by comparison) is a testament to how good they are overall.

Now, I don't think that makes up for the difference in 8 points or, more importantly, the 40 goals difference in goal differential. But Carolina is a good team, but they didn't have as good a season as the Flames, even considering the difference in their schedules.

Not that that matters much in the playoffs.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

But how a team does against a particular conference can he attributed to small sample size.

At the end of the day, the Canes had a tougher schedule, as you play more games against teams in your own division. The Flames played lots of games against the 4 worse teams in the West. That's 20% of their entire schedule. The fact that Calgary may have played poorly against their own division (by comparison) is a testament to how good they are overall.

Now, I don't think that makes up for the difference in 8 points or, more importantly, the 40 goals difference in goal differential. But Carolina is a good team, but they didn't have as good a season as the Flames, even considering the difference in their schedules.

Not that that matters much in the playoffs.

No but if you have an assumption that the 107 points came from claiming gimme points from your own division, but then you dig in and they had the hardest time against their own division it's hard to make the padding their standing through a weak division comment.

They were better against better teams.

[Hackey]

Ferland has played 3 games the entire playoffs and two were losses. If were just randomly judging post season success in a vacuum to judge the trade how does this factor in?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Ferland has played 3 games the entire playoffs and two were losses. If were just randomly judging post season success in a vacuum to judge the trade how does this factor in?

The biggest difference for the Canes this year is that they upgraded their head coach significantly. It is showing in the playoffs. Brind'Amour has them firing on all cylinders.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The biggest difference for the Canes this year is that they upgraded their head coach significantly. It is showing in the playoffs. Brind'Amour has them firing on all cylinders.

So you don’t think Hamilton is an upgrade on Hanifin; or that their younger players got 1 more year of experience and maybe the goalie improved?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

So you don’t think Hamilton is an upgrade on Hanifin; or that their younger players got 1 more year of experience and maybe the goalie improved?

I think all of that is true. But a whole lot of people defending the Peters hire argued the Canes had very little talent, were a cap floor team etc. It sure seems like their coach is getting a lot out of them. That doesn’t have to be a knock on Peters, it just seems they found the ideal guy to coach that team.

[dino7c]

Hockey is a funny sport...Canes made the playoffs by three points after a pretty big run to end the year. At one point it looked like they were done. A couple of bad breaks and they are all bums...couple fortunate ones and they are world beaters.

They seem to have caught lightning in a bottle right now and everything is just going their way...happens to a couple teams every year. Still can't judge a trade by it especially when a 3rd/4th dman is the only one involved in the trade actually playing.

[savemedrzaius]

It's funny how a players worth drops once he is traded. Hamilton was a bonafide top pairing defenseman while on the Flames being touted as a Norris candidate.

Now he is dropping to a 3-4. So was he overrated by Flames fans while he was here or are people just sour?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

It's funny how a players worth drops once he is traded. Hamilton was a bonafide top pairing defenseman while on the Flames being touted as a Norris candidate.

Now he is dropping to a 3-4. So was he overrated by Flames fans while he was here or are people just sour?

He is literally a 3-4 on the Canes...that is what he plays ice time wise

4th in Canes Dmen for ice time...it wasn't a knock. Guy is a good player, asked for a trade...Flames improved

[timbit]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Hockey is a funny sport...Canes made the playoffs by three points after a pretty big run to end the year. At one point it looked like they were done. A couple of bad breaks and they are all bums...couple fortunate ones and they are world beaters.

They seem to have caught lightning in a bottle right now and everything is just going their way...happens to a couple teams every year. Still can't judge a trade by it especially when a 3rd/4th dman is the only one involved in the trade actually playing.

From the all star break to the end of the season , the Canes were 4th in the NHL. Flames were 16th.

The Canes were an excellent team the last 2 months of the season. The Flames were not.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No but if you have an assumption that the 107 points came from claiming gimme points from your own division, but then you dig in and they had the hardest time against their own division it's hard to make the padding their standing through a weak division comment.



They were better against better teams.

And they were worse against worse teams.

The fact is, they had an easier schedule.


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[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

It's funny how a players worth drops once he is traded. Hamilton was a bonafide top pairing defenseman while on the Flames being touted as a Norris candidate.

Now he is dropping to a 3-4. So was he overrated by Flames fans while he was here or are people just sour?

The season after he leaves his former D partner also is about to win the Norris trophy. Personally I didn’t consider Hamilton a Norris contender but did think he was a top paring D. Have not watched much of the Canes to see if he still looks that way or is a 3/4. I assume he still doesn’t kill penalties and was already roasted for lazy plays these playoffs.

Can’t paint Flames fans with one brush here. There was a vocal minority that was happy to see Dougie sent packing last year.

[Itse]

Hamilton was a divisive player in Calgary right from the start. There's definitely no one CP hivemind opinion of him.

[gamesaver]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

That has very little to do with evaluating a trade.
You assess the parts involved not the teams success.
You don't think that Mrazek, McBackup, Aho, TT, Nino, Slavin, Faulk and BrindAmour have something to do with it as well? Assessing a trade based on a teams playoff success or failure is ludicrous.

Maybe Canes just dumped their thrash bin in Calgary, letting us have players and coach they knew they would never contribute to any real success... Peters, Ryan, Hanifin, Lindholm. Lost these 4 guys, added Hamilton and Ferland and suddenly turned from a non-playoff team into contender. Flames have won the worst division in the league and were embarrassed in the first round by a wild card team. I just never liked the narrative of many Flames fans on this forum stating that Tre has fleeced the Canes. You should never evaluate a trade like this just few months after. If the Canes win the cup this year, they won the trade. If the Flames are going to win the cup during those 6 years of Hanifin and Lindholm contracts, Flames won it. But ultimately, you play for win, not for fancy stats or a healthy cap situation. You want to win.

[Flamenspiel]

^^This is absurd, Furland has not even played a game and if you actually watch the game, Hamilton is passenger on this team, he is getting beat consistently.

It is obvious that Carolina had a surplus of talent and Treliving was able to procure some of that. Along with the top defence pair, players like Stall, Foegole, and now Svechnikov are really showing up as great playoff performers.